When I said distance, think of it as "radius" and the no. of threads within that radius...
Shannow Send a noteboard - 21/07/2010 02:57:57 PM
Personally, I think you're on the right track, but I tend to think it's not quite that simple. Specifically, I suspect that the "proximity to SG" limitation isn't strictly a function of distance.
We know, for fact (from Q&A), that proximity to SG IS a factor. Here is the quote:
Q: He [the DO] doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?
Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else).
But all we can conclude from that bolded comment is that dying "at SG" is different from dying "not at SG". We don't know from that comment if "not at SG" is a function of distance or not.
The "or did" caveat at the end of the bolded part suggests to me that as more Seals weakened/broke, the DO's ability to grab souls away from SG increased, because his ability to touch/affect the Pattern increased.
I suspect, ultimately, that the underlying issue RJ was trying to get at is ... how quickly the DO can locate the soul in the Pattern. Clearly, he can locate it VERY quickly if the soul dies at/near SG - I would guess anywhere in the Blight (i.e. anywhere within his immediate sphere of influence), which would help explain how he caught Aginor & Balthamel's souls when 6 of the 7 seals were still intact at that time.
But once you get outside the Blight then other factors become more relevant. Perhaps physical distance from SG is one, but I suspect there are others, too. For example, I suspect the Shadow's influence at the place of death is a factor. What I mean is, if the Shadow has significant influence at a particular place, or even better, has defeated the Light at a particular place, then I suspect the DO's influence there is strengthened (considerably, in the latter case), making it easier for him to find souls there. Conversely, if the Shadow has little/no influence at a particular place, or even worse, if the Light has defeated the Shadow at a particular place, then the DO's influence there is weakened (considerably, in the latter case). Similar to how the Blight retreated after Rand and the Light's victories in/near the Blight at the end of TEotW.
So in Asmodean's case ... he was definitely outside SG/Blight when he died, so that was a factor. And, he died in Caemlyn just after the Shadow had suffered a major defeat (namely, Rand taking control of the city from Rahvin after killing him). I think that also was a factor. And, like you, I think a small amount of balefire was used, so that was also a factor (explaining, as you said, why HOW and WHERE were both factors).
In Ishamael's case, he was outside SG/Blight, and in a place (Tear) where the Shadow had suffered a major defeat (namely, his own death plus Bel'al's death and the resulting loss of control over the city to the Light). But, Ishamael was channeling the TP at the time he died, and I suspect that "link" to the DO overcame the negative factors that were similar to Asmodean's situation. Plus, he also died in TAR, and we don't know if that was a positive, negative, or non factor in the DO's ability to catch the soul.
Etzel's argument that RJ's quote about the DO still being able to capture a soul if a small amount of BF is used means that the DO can ALWAYS capture a soul when a small amout of BF is used (i.e. other potential negative factors are eliminated in that case) is flat out wrong. All RJ was saying was that if a small enough amount of BF is used, then there is still a window of opportunity for the DO to capture the soul. But, there are still other negative factors that could prevent the DO from capturing the soul in that case, just as he said there are if no BF is used. Why should those "other factors" be eliminated if small BF is used? It makes no sense, and it boggles my mind that Etzel chooses to interpret it that way.
We know, for fact (from Q&A), that proximity to SG IS a factor. Here is the quote:
Q: He [the DO] doesn't have access to all souls to be able to grab any soul?
Jordan: No, no, no. Because of the Bore and the fact that the Bore is best perceived, the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere, or did, and uh, that's, when you know, Rahvin died, Rahvin is balefired out of time, slain out of time, cannot be reached, gone. Be'lal, (names someone else).
But all we can conclude from that bolded comment is that dying "at SG" is different from dying "not at SG". We don't know from that comment if "not at SG" is a function of distance or not.
The "or did" caveat at the end of the bolded part suggests to me that as more Seals weakened/broke, the DO's ability to grab souls away from SG increased, because his ability to touch/affect the Pattern increased.
I suspect, ultimately, that the underlying issue RJ was trying to get at is ... how quickly the DO can locate the soul in the Pattern. Clearly, he can locate it VERY quickly if the soul dies at/near SG - I would guess anywhere in the Blight (i.e. anywhere within his immediate sphere of influence), which would help explain how he caught Aginor & Balthamel's souls when 6 of the 7 seals were still intact at that time.
But once you get outside the Blight then other factors become more relevant. Perhaps physical distance from SG is one, but I suspect there are others, too. For example, I suspect the Shadow's influence at the place of death is a factor. What I mean is, if the Shadow has significant influence at a particular place, or even better, has defeated the Light at a particular place, then I suspect the DO's influence there is strengthened (considerably, in the latter case), making it easier for him to find souls there. Conversely, if the Shadow has little/no influence at a particular place, or even worse, if the Light has defeated the Shadow at a particular place, then the DO's influence there is weakened (considerably, in the latter case). Similar to how the Blight retreated after Rand and the Light's victories in/near the Blight at the end of TEotW.
So in Asmodean's case ... he was definitely outside SG/Blight when he died, so that was a factor. And, he died in Caemlyn just after the Shadow had suffered a major defeat (namely, Rand taking control of the city from Rahvin after killing him). I think that also was a factor. And, like you, I think a small amount of balefire was used, so that was also a factor (explaining, as you said, why HOW and WHERE were both factors).
In Ishamael's case, he was outside SG/Blight, and in a place (Tear) where the Shadow had suffered a major defeat (namely, his own death plus Bel'al's death and the resulting loss of control over the city to the Light). But, Ishamael was channeling the TP at the time he died, and I suspect that "link" to the DO overcame the negative factors that were similar to Asmodean's situation. Plus, he also died in TAR, and we don't know if that was a positive, negative, or non factor in the DO's ability to catch the soul.
Etzel's argument that RJ's quote about the DO still being able to capture a soul if a small amount of BF is used means that the DO can ALWAYS capture a soul when a small amout of BF is used (i.e. other potential negative factors are eliminated in that case) is flat out wrong. All RJ was saying was that if a small enough amount of BF is used, then there is still a window of opportunity for the DO to capture the soul. But, there are still other negative factors that could prevent the DO from capturing the soul in that case, just as he said there are if no BF is used. Why should those "other factors" be eliminated if small BF is used? It makes no sense, and it boggles my mind that Etzel chooses to interpret it that way.
I agree with you. I don't know about the "influence over a specific area and the recent defeat of the Shadow in that city" part.
But when I talk about distance from Shayol Ghul, I mean the influence that this would indirectly have on the Dark One's ability to quickly find a soul.
To put it differently - for every 100 miles you move away from Shayol Ghul, there are millions of extra people that are present within that radius from the Bore. Hence, there are millions of extra threads to sift through to find the one he is looking for, and hence he needs more time to do so.
Theoretically, there would be a point - given the current limitations placed by the size of the Bore - beyond which he will not have enough time to save someone - even if no balefire was used. This "distance" would gradually expand as the Bore grows and his influence extends.
On top of that, if you use balefire, the amount of time he has available is decreased. And if enough balefire is used, eventually the window of opportunity simply isn't long enough to search through all the threads he has to sift through.
So what my theory is saying, is that a larger amount of balefire would be required to eliminate someone closer to Shayol Ghul, than would be required if he died further from Shayol Ghul.
Moiraine's tiny amount was sufficient for Be'lal in Tear, but it would not have been sufficient if he died in Saldaea, for example.
And this particular ratio was only in place at the time, based on the number of Seals still intact.
The limits of transmigration
21/07/2010 12:34:20 PM
- 1010 Views
The EXACT anwer is easy to provide...
21/07/2010 12:51:48 PM
- 646 Views
Can't be right
21/07/2010 01:09:36 PM
- 635 Views
I don't understand what you're saying here...
21/07/2010 01:19:13 PM
- 693 Views
I disagree...
21/07/2010 01:49:36 PM
- 556 Views
Re: The EXACT anwer is easy to provide...
21/07/2010 02:41:58 PM
- 557 Views
When I said distance, think of it as "radius" and the no. of threads within that radius...
21/07/2010 02:57:57 PM
- 610 Views
OK, I understand ...
21/07/2010 03:24:34 PM
- 582 Views
But as you said...
21/07/2010 03:01:50 PM
- 529 Views
Re: But as you said...
21/07/2010 03:35:51 PM
- 527 Views
I think it's absurd to think relative distance to SG is a factor:
21/07/2010 04:01:17 PM
- 722 Views
I don't think it was ever said that the DO had less Power in TAR
21/07/2010 03:01:31 PM
- 503 Views
The idea is...
21/07/2010 03:10:15 PM
- 574 Views
Hmmm, I'm not really sure if this holds true.
21/07/2010 03:25:55 PM
- 508 Views
Maybe death by the TP?
21/07/2010 03:48:16 PM
- 531 Views
Trying to mask yet another Slayer killed Asmodean argument are we?
21/07/2010 06:21:57 PM
- 587 Views