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Re: Do you think Cadsuanes lesson has been learned now? DomA Send a noteboard - 21/07/2010 12:07:42 AM
Do you think this news might have brought about a similar change of Rand as the change we saw at the end of TGS?


No. Before his epiphany, Rand would have been catastrophied to learn Elayne was pregnant, to the point it would have overwhelmed any joy he could have felt from the news, and in turn it would have caused much pain to Elayne and the other two to see this.

On his bad days, he saw even his lovers as a burden. First, they made it more difficult for him to accept he had to die, and he saw them as an additional reason to worry and fear the Shadow will get them, and he felt guilty that they'll have to suffer when he dies.

He would have worried extremely about Elayne and her vulnerability because she's pregnant. He would have worried about the fate of the children in TG, and after TG if anyone ever learns who their father was. He would also have been terrified someone in the Shadow could connect the dots and figure out these kids were his own, which would have put them and Elayne in extreme danger. He would have thought about Kari's death, and would have felt sad his children would grow up half-orphaned like him. He may even have pressed Elayne to marry someone else.

Elayne probably would never have seen Rand again if she told him she was pregnant with his children.

Obviously, LTT has repressed all memories of his children he killed (he never made a single mention of that, as if this part was so painful he's totally repressed the very existence of those children). Just with his guilt and pain over Ilyena, he was virtually crippled. Learning "he's" to be a dad might have broke LTT apart completing, bringing back all the repressed aspects of the Kinslaying, and crippling Rand in turn. That's something Rand could really, really do without.

Elayne, Min and Aviendha have done the wise thing to keep this secret from Rand.

Where Cadsuane's plan almost went wrong, IMO, is that she reminded him of love and family in a way that would also remind him of what had been lost to him; his father who he cannot be seen to rely on, his home that he cannot return to for fear of endangering it, and his old life that didn't end in "certain" death in his 20s.


Actually, Cadsuane wanted Rand to realize in how much emotional pain he was over what's he lost, because he had managed to build a wall between the Dragon and Rand al'Thor, and Cadsuane feared (rightly) that if this wall came apart at a bad time (during TG), Rand might irretrievably shatter. She wanted the Dragon to free the frightened 20 y.o. he hid inside his armor - the part of him that's still human, and who needs to be made strong to bear the burden of TG. Moiraine had to shape Rand into the Dragon, and after she was gone Rand went to far that way, and Cadsuane's task was to remind the Dragon he was Rand al'Thor, and it's Rand who would fight Shai'tan. So, she intended to destroy the wall while Rand could still come back from this shattering (and when it did, it was far more violent than she feared, and the world really hanged in the balance for a minute... imagine if Cadsuane didn't do that and the shattering of his emotional armor happened during TG, through the death of one of his lovers for instancce... Rand would likely have destroyed the world then, or give up). She wanted to break his heart by bringing him Tam, wanted him to shatter and hit the bottom of the barrel, then with Tam's help come back. She thought that meeting with something he's repressed (his past, his loved ones) could shatter the armor he had built around his emotions. She had not done that before, because it was an extreme and dangerous measure. It's probably the fact even nearly killing Min didn't shatter him but made him only harder which convince her she had no other alternative left but to risk this tactic.

Cadsuane's plan went wrong not because she caused pain to Rand, that was not really her goal but certainly her mean to an end (to feel pain before he breaks down and can accept to feel emotions again). It went wrong because Nynaeve and her didn't tell Tam Rand didn't trust them anymore, trusted no one anymore in fact Everything broke apart because Tam wasn't forewarned of this and let slip the AS were the ones who fetched him, and in his paranoia about being manipulated Rand totally lost it.


Wouldn't it have made him want to win the LB for the right reasons: the safety of his progeny and his family? Of every family and child in the world? Wouldn't his "certain death" have a positive, personal meaning?


Not then, no. He would have seen this very negatively.

Now after his epiphany about love it's completely different. Now it's the time to tell him he's gonna leave the future children of his own, that is personal life will have produce something concrete, new life. Now this is gonna motivate him to fight the LB for the future of his children and all children, careful every step of the way to leave as much of a world behind as possible. Now he's gonna derive strength from this knowledge and these feelings. Strength to go on, and do what he must. Before DM, he would have seen this as an additional weakness he must keep secret from the Shadow.

After his epiphany, Rand has turned things around. What he saw as weakness and fears he coud cope with but had to earlier he'll very likely see as one of his greatest strengths. Rand's feelings for his loved ones will also very likely reconcile Rand's with humanity as whole. It will make him feel "part of it" again, not apart and isolated.


I'm not sure this fulfills Min's viewing about Cadsuane, no (we don't know if the lesson Cadsuane has to teach Rand and the Asha'man is something Cadsuane herself is aware of as of yet. If it's one of her goals or something that will come up about which she'll have something to teach). But as for Cadsuane's main goal, to rid Rand of his darkness so victory at the LB isn't as bad as a defeat (ie: Rand taking a path as dark and inhuman as Mordreth's in order to defeat the Shadow), has certainly been met. Definitely not on her terms, and at the price of her humiliation and putting the fate of the world into the balance, but "making Rand re learn laughters and tears" as Sorilea put it, that's now done.

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What if Rand had known he was going to be a dad? - 20/07/2010 01:58:55 AM 935 Views
Rand wasn't ready for this before DM in TGS - 20/07/2010 05:27:32 AM 1228 Views
Do you think Cadsuanes lesson has been learned now? - 20/07/2010 06:44:36 AM 760 Views
Re: Do you think Cadsuanes lesson has been learned now? - 21/07/2010 12:07:42 AM 632 Views
What Min's viewing meant IMO - 21/07/2010 04:03:08 AM 1003 Views
I see what you're saying - 20/07/2010 07:14:47 AM 530 Views
Re: I see what you're saying - 21/07/2010 12:44:17 AM 555 Views
Wow. Well said DomA *NM* - 21/07/2010 04:38:22 AM 475 Views
Dead on balls accurrate - 20/07/2010 09:07:34 AM 567 Views

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