LOL. Yeah, that surprised me as well.



I see what you're saying, but I see it along the lines of them thinking they have just leashed wild animals. Yes, they need to tame them, which means spending time training them, but until they are tamed they aren't going to allow them to associate with anyone else. Instead, they would want to keep them locked in a cage somewhere when they aren't spending time breaking them. Since they can't very well literally lock them in a cage (the men might actually resist that, despite bond Compulsion, if it's being used!), they have to content themselves with putting the men in the outer camp with strict orders to sit and stay until their masters come for them.



From his point of view, it is humiliation regardless of whether the nobles see it or not, however. And yes, I know I'm catching myself in the POV trap here, but I can see his position because it does establish her authority over him to everyone who saw it.



That makes sense and I agree with it, but I have one question, then: why is it presented as acceptable for Egwene to behave the exact same way toward those she is leading? Her explosion at Nynaeve and Elayne for the Sea Folk bargain was just as bad as Rand's explosion at Merana and Rafela regarding the deal with the Tairens. In fact, it's a mirror instance of it, yet Egwene was shown to be "right". In her time as Amyrlin, before her capture, she went out of her way to instill fear in everyone, forcing people to swear fealty, tricking them into giving her complete power with the war vote, and having the novices punished severely for blinking at her wrong. She basically became a tyrant amongst the Rebels, which is supposedly a horrible thing for Rand to become to those who follow him. Can we say double standard?



I see your point, and if the lesson was spread to someone other than Rand, I would agree with it. Unfortunately, it seems perfectly acceptable for Aes Sedai to cow people who resist them, threaten those people, and for the Aes Sedai to lead by instilling fear in those they’re trying to tug and/or shove in whatever they want them to go. The Aes Sedai – and, specifically, Egwene – never has those lessons forced upon them the way Rand is having them forced upon him by Cadsuane. And, not to mention, Cadsuane uses the same tactics against anyone who tries to oppose her! Look at how she shoved the Sea Folk around and blackmailed them. She is notorious for kidnapping a king and queen and smacking them around to make them do what she wants yet here she trying to tell Rand that he’s wrong for being so rude and nasty to people when she is the queen of being rude to everyone she encounters who doesn’t immediately fall into line with what she wants. The hypocrisy of it is astounding.

One note on my issues with Cadsuane’s attitude toward Nynaeve…between the scene in this chapter (where Nynaeve snaps at Cadsuane and is clearly not worried about angering her or anything Cadsuane might do in retaliation) and a scene I found in New Spring, I’m over it. I’ve come to the conclusion that whatever goes down between Cadsuane and Nynaeve is simply an grouchy old woman who’s been through a lot and has experienced a lot more trying to, however rudely, “teach” a young woman who, while having experienced a lot in her short years, is still young and has a lot more to go through before she knows what Cadsuane has learned over the years. I went back to New Spring to look something up and ran across the scene with Cadsuane and Moiraine where Cadsuane is calling Moiraine “child” and treating her like a servant. It was after Moiraine was raised to the shawl. She gave Moiraine no more credit than she gives Nynaeve now and, in fact, was even more aggressive with Moiraine by saddling her with two sisters, ordering her to wait instead of immediately rushing off, then threatening to beat her till she can’t sit if she doesn’t obey Cadsuane’s orders. After that, Cadsuane’s treatment of Nynaeve doesn’t seem so bad. And besides, if Nynaeve has the spine to snap at Cadsuane in front of Rand, I guess Cadsuane isn’t a problem for her and she isn’t taking any more crap than she feels she must for Rand’s sake. Besides, I suppose I can’t expect manners from someone as abrasive as Cadsuane…I have to wonder if that’s what Nynaeve will be like in a hundred or so years. Or ten…



But, in a freefall, when you hit the ground you’re dead anyway, so who cares if you bounce?



Pfft. I wear steel-toed boots.



For all the claims of this, she seems just like the rest of them only her typical obnoxious Aes Sedai behavior is exponentially worse. She’s rude, expects instant and complete obedience to her demands, thinks she has the right to take over in any situation she chooses, bullies people right and left, manipulates people right and left, and expects people to like it and say “thank you” when she all but spits in their faces. Am I supposed to think that the difference between her and the others is because she’s “right”? That sounds too much like Egwene’s thoughts on why she should be the one to control Rand. Though, I admit, with a choice between Cadsuane controlling him and Egwene controlling him, I’d take Cadsuane.



She also regretted not having been the one to rape-bond him until she realized Alanna was unable to control Rand at all. She also almost regretted him not having been born in Far Madding (since then he’d have been fully beaten down to accept any woman’s authority) except for the fact that it would have presented more problems (instead of obeying her, he’d have been obeying every woman who snapped her fingers at him).



Oh, come on, Cannoli. Aes Sedai can twist the truth however they see fit. If, in her opinion, Rand had no business overseeing Semirhage’s captivity (and, if I had to bet, she really does feel it’s Aes Sedai business), then she could have simply told him so and to butt out. She could say it was for his benefit because he has things he has to do and shouldn’t be bothering with a Forsaken like Semirhage. That she didn’t do that – when I can fully see her taking that stance – is why I was shocked. Any other Aes Sedai would have done so, which I suppose is support for your claim that she’s not like other Aes Sedai.

Damn it.



It wouldn’t be a lie. In Cadsuane’s eyes, bringing a Forsaken to justice – or questioning her for information – is Aes Sedai business, not Rand’s. Especially when Rand is making them do such a craptacular job of it.



Good point and, put that way, I can understand and support Cadsuane’s stance on this subject. A few thoughts on Logain, however…

I differ with you on Logain. Logain has every reason to be hostile to Rand, even if he shouldn’t do so. He goes to Rand, offering his help and informing him that Taim is a lunatic and ensuring that the men at the BT are loyal to him rather than to Rand and his cause, and for his efforts he gets yelled at for daring to defend himself (and his men) against women who came to kill them all. Rand ignores anything said about Taim and clearly has no use for Logain’s opinion on anything. Instead, he expects Logain to jump when he says frog. Furthermore, he’s selling Asha’man into slavery – Logain can’t take kindly to that, not when he obviously sees that the Asha’man could become something more than Aes Sedai slaves. Especially not when he realizes that, should the wind blow wrong, Rand may decide Logain himself needs to submit himself to being bonded as a slave. Rand’s treatment of the Asha’man has been abysmal, and his inattention to what’s going on at the Black Tower is pure idiocy.



And I agree the right thing for him to do is to fulfill his promise. So yes, she was right to advise him to do the right thing. The thing is, she didn’t have to smack him around to get him to do the right thing. I have no problem with that.

I think people misunderstand my issues with her, really. I agree that Rand needs someone to tell him when he’s screwing up. In my opinion, anyone in a position of power needs that. It’s one of the few things I like about the Seanchan – the fact that Tuon has a Truthspeaker, and that apparently the Emperor or Empress always has a Truthspeaker is awesome. So Rand having someone to do the same thing doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that:

1. Cadsuane is an Aes Sedai. I don’t trust Aes Sedai and we have been given about a billion reasons never to trust Aes Sedai in the series. Yes, there seems to be a bit of proof that she isn’t the same as other Aes Sedai but there is also proof that she is just like other Aes Sedai. She blackmailed Damer, Narishma, and Eben into being bonded by Merise and that lot. She thinks all the Asha’man should be bonded and hates seeing Aes Sedai on the “wrong” side of the bond no matter the circumstances. She bullied and blackmailed the Sea Folk. Despite her claims that she’d make every sister in the Tower run naked if it would help Rand, there are too many other thoughts on her part that make it clear that Aes Sedai dignity and power is a priority for her. That’s why I can’t help wondering how long it will be until she twists the truth in her mind so she can screw Rand over and get him to either behave like the perfect Warder-slave or like an Aes Sedai lapdog.

2. Egwene gets away with the things Cadsuane yells at Rand for.

3. Tuon’s Truthspeaker may help her when she needs a penance for crappy behavior but she doesn’t demean her in the presence of the people who follow her and she doesn’t slap her or give her a penance in front of anyone.

If Cadsuane could keep her hands to herself, and deal with Rand as she did in chapter 1 – and has in other instances where she simply advised him as to his actions – I wouldn’t be complaining. As much. She’s still an Aes Sedai and, until we get to the end and I have inarguable proof that she did not get Rand to a point where he was a pawn for any Aes Sedai (and did not make him kneel to Egwene), I’m going to maintain some doubt where she’s concerned.



But that’s my point. She is going along with him on things she know he would resist her on. She’s only establishing authority with him in areas where he has given his word to allow it (“manners”) and expanding that authority as time goes along to other areas (making the Asha’man hold their tempers around each other). And yes, I know what you said above – and I see the wisdom in it – but there is always more than one way to view something. While there are valid reasons for her interference between Rand and Logain, ones I can even support now, it doesn’t change the fact that she is able to add rules as she goes along with Rand. Rand even says as much in KoD.

Can you not see how someone could draw the conclusion that her adding more rules as time goes along could be a sign of her extending her authority over Rand? Rand is psychologically damaged due to his time in the box (I’m leaving LTT out of this because I personally think that’s a separate issue) and if she pushed too hard too fast, he’d have shut her out completely. But, if her intent is to slowly break him to her leash, she’s going about it the right way. If that was her intent, she couldn’t approach him like Elayne approached Mat’s men. While Vanin hated nobles, suspected Aes Sedai, etc., he was not a man who had been tortured both psychologically and physically. What Elayne did was like training a dog who had another master – it takes a bit of effort but it’s not that difficult because the dog likes the pats on the head and can adjust quickly to her hand. Cadsuane’s methods are far more suited to working with abused animals. An attempted pat on the head is seen as a possible punch to the head so the normal rules don’t apply. You have to get them to slowly trust you…you have to slowly establish your authority over them because they are so skittish they may dart.



Moral supremacy? Then the Pope runs around smacking everyone in the face, too?

Seriously, do you not see the irony? Cadsuane’s introduction to Rand established her as the rudest, nastiest, most demeaning twit he had encountered in a while. Then she goes on to lecture him about manners. She corrects his supposed verbal attacks of his followers by attacking him physically. She attempts to quell his temper by smacking the crap out of him, which only makes him angrier (though it does stop him from what he’s doing at the time). What she’s doing is acting out Nynaeve’s comments regarding how men only thought with the hair on their chests and always resorted to violence and how it made her want to thump some sense into them. It makes Cadsuane look like a hypocrite to many people. Now, in this chapter we’re all discussing, she takes a different approach – she reminds him of his manners with a mere look and he responds well, corrects himself and doesn’t get angry.



And of those options, I suppose I support the slapping, though in my opinion people get offended way too easily and it irks me to no end that people have gotten to the point where they believe they have some God-given right not to ever be in the presence of something that offends them. Anyway, running around slapping people for looking at you wrong, cursing in front of you, etc. is ridiculous to me. If I don’t like someone’s behavior or attitude, I don’t associate with them. If I’m insistent on being in their presence, then it’s my bloody problem if they do or say something I don’t like. Only if someone bothers me physically do I resort to violence.



I suppose women slapping men around is acceptable in the WoT world, then, since even the Shienarans must’ve expected it from Nynaeve about their language. And I see your point about my scenario requiring real punishments rather than a slap or a smack on the butt like Cadsuane did to Rand in KoD. I’ve just always taken it a different way because face slapping just really rubs me the wrong way. It holds a special place of loathing for me and ticks me off when I see it. I’ve never slapped anyone, save my cousin who used to bite people all the time (so hard that she’d almost draw blood) and that was the only way to get her bloody jaws off of you, though I suppose a few people I’ve had encounters with would’ve preferred a slap… I’ve been slapped in the face a total of four times in my life, three by my mother (and to this day I think I only deserved one of those three and the other two were because she lost her temper with me) and once by an ex-boyfriend who, once I finished with him, would run the other way in fear whenever he saw me. The last was clearly a power play, one that failed severely. I simply wanted to see Rand respond the same way to Cadsuane’s slaps – to stomp her in the ground in response to show her he would not accept her trying to beat him down - but perhaps my views on the matter are jaded by my own experiences.

As for slapping Rand for balefire, I still think that was uncalled for and, ultimately, resulted in him getting stabbed by Fain. I’m sorry, if you want to tell someone not to do something again, you don’t pick the middle of a bloody battle to do it. That was sheer idiocy and arrogance on her part and I won’t back off on that stance. Correcting someone’s behavior when they are in a situation where they may possibly get killed is just plain stupid.



And that irks me to no end…having female genitalia no more makes her superior to Rand than having male genitalia makes any man superior to any woman. If she’s socially superior, it should be due to her accomplishments not her gender and, in my opinion, her accomplishments are not superior to Rand’s.



No, I don’t think the Marines are silly for that and I do not oppose all spankings, but Rand is an adult, not a child. Cadsuane is his advisor, not his mother and not his mistress (*wonders what Rand would think of Caddy dressed up in leather carrying a whip so she is in no position to spank him like that is her position. When they aren’t alone, I’d prefer her to find ways to correct him that don’t involve smacking him like she does; the cocked eyebrow in this chapter didn’t bother me in the least. When they are alone, if she feels she needs to resort to violence, I’d rather see her stomp his foot or kick him in the shin for doing something she doesn’t like than to have her slap him in the face or smack his butt like he’s a recalcitrant two-year old under her care.



Moiraine got what she deserved from Rand.



See my comments on this above. If the objective was to break Rand, she could not go about it in the same way the Tower goes about breaking novices for indoctrination or even like how Merise breaks her Warders to turn them into perfectly behaved little sex slaves. Rand has been through too much and has trust issues already. You don’t beat an abused animal to get him on a leash, not unless you want him to run or to attack you.



Maybe, maybe not. You’ve convinced me to at least entertain the possibility that that is not her goal now. However, I’m not willing to throw my money in the pile till all the cards have been dealt, so to speak



And if this is all Cadsuane is after with him, then I have no problem with it because it’s a good lesson to learn. However, she needs to use methods other than slapping him around.



I think it’s already working, actually. Rand made a comment about him being lucky she didn’t order him to pour her tea (after she barged into his room without so much as a knock on the door) and seemed to accept it, so he’s already to the point where he’ll jump when she says frog.



And he exploded because she walked in and intentionally insulted him and treated him like crap…in his own abode. What she did was akin to walking into a stranger’s living room, peeing on their TV, taking a dump on their sofa, spitting in their face, telling them they’re garbage, then sweeping out. I think his explosion was warranted. If someone stormed into my house uninvited and treated me like she treated Rand, they’d be lucky if there was anything left of them for the coroner to come get.

That said, I think you may be right about me taking her slaps as more extreme deterrences than what they may be. As I said, I have a thing about face slapping and it sends me into a rage to even think about someone slapping me like she slaps him. If she had kicked him in the shin or stomped his foot, I really wouldn’t have thought another thing about it.



I just don’t have that much faith in Elayne where Egwene is concerned. I could totally see Elayne forcing Rand to his knees before Egwene. She stated before that Rand should kneel to her and I haven’t seen anything from her to make me believe she has changed her stance on this.



Yet Rand has forbidden them to stand up to Aes Sedai and is, instead, selling them into slavery to the Aes Sedai. It’s hard to stand up to the people who hold your leash. Their “acceptance” is coming as Aes Sedai lapdogs and some of them are more than happy to take that much. It makes me sick that most of the men in WoT are such spineless wimps that believe condescension, demeaning treatment, and verbal/physical abuse are signs of affection.



It seems to me that most nations want Rand leashed and out of the way and would be happy to have Aes Sedai do it for them.



Smart man.




I think your scenario is a bad example. One of Rand’s problems right now is that, as you said, he’s beating the crap out of himself with guilt over all the people who have died in this war. He sees the blood of every female’s death on his own hands instead of understanding that they aren’t dying for him and are, instead, dying because of the Shadow. He sees himself as the enemy and monster instead of laying the blame at the Dark One’s feet where it belongs.

The only issue of arrogance he has is this one, in my opinion. It’s not up to him to decide who lives and who dies. He isn’t the Creator, he’s the Creator’s Chosen who must lead the battle against the Shadow. People will die in the war and he can’t control that. All he can do is try to find a way to minimize the casualties. So, to go with your plane landing scenario…

Rand is the only one who can bring the plane in safe for landing, but he only has one limb, is bleeding through major orifices, can’t see well, and all of the plane’s equipment is broken. He needs a shot of painkillers so he can manage to keep from losing consciousness long enough to get the plane on the ground. The problem is that the painkillers he has aren’t working properly and he’s so obsessed with the fact that certain people on the plane are going to die that he gets up and runs in the back to protect them, risking the plane crashing and killing everyone anyway.

I’ve always felt that this is where the Void is useful and it’s what he’s trying, unsuccessfully, to achieve. The Void is the ultimate painkiller – both physical and emotional - and gives focus like nothing else can. It’s something normal people can use to function when other people would be curled into a ball begging for mercy. Some people can’t achieve that Void if the pain is too intense but they can learn to do so. That’s what he needs right now, to not feel all the physical and emotional pain that is crippling him. In the Void, you can fight through pain and emotional trauma and everything else, but Rand isn’t really in the Void. He’s pretending to be in the Void, and actually manages it where his physical pain is concerned, but he’s mentally flogging himself over all the people who have died in the battle with him. That’s the pain that ruins his entire sense of right and wrong. He handicaps himself by refusing to harm the enemies when they’re female because he’s so afraid of losing his humanity (what he believes to be left of it). He’s making himself insane because his desires conflict so badly that there’s no way to achieve them all at once. What I believe is that if he truly embraces the Void and lets go of the self-inflicted guilt and the emotional pain he’s suffered, his vision (his vision of what must be done and how to achieve, as well as what actions are right and wrong morally, not his literal vision) will clear.



No, more like a little kid who just had his eyeballs jabbed out with a sharp stick, knows there’s no way to have it healed, and refuses to put on a pretty pair of sunglasses so people won’t have to be offended at how horrible he looks now. Healing from the emotional and psychological traumas (not to mention the physical ones) that have been inflicted on him takes time he doesn’t have. That’s why I said he needs the Void, but he needs to use it the way it’s meant to be used rather than partially embracing the Void while he continues to torment himself.



No, he’s trying to get there while he can still manage to keep his feet. In your scenario, the girl is already pinned spread-eagle to a pool table and a few of the men have taken their turn. If things continue as they are, and all signs point to the fact that they will get worse, then Rand’s right – there won’t be anything left of him to kill. At this point, the “easy way out” would be to say the hell with everyone and head to the Waste, then stay there till the DO takes the world. Rand is dead either way and he’s going to suffer either way. Yet that thought never occurs to him. Instead, his only concern is Tarmon Gai’don. And not harming women.



As I said above, he wants to get there while there is still something left of him and he can keep his feet long enough to die to save the incredibly crappy world he’s protecting.

No, I don’t think the men of Manetheren marched to their deaths thinking those things, but the difference is they still had a chance to live. They weren’t going to certain death – there was hope. Rand has no hope. There’s no way he will survive what’s coming. Those men you mention didn’t march to the bank of Tarendrelle after having already been stabbed in the gut, while they were losing blood so quickly that they likely wouldn’t be able to kill even one enemy before dropping over, they weren’t blind, weren’t missing one hand and unable to use their weapons, and were able to walk ten feet without getting dizzy.

His desire to hurry up and get it over with isn’t about HIM, it’s about winning and, in his POV, the only way to win is if he can get to Tarmon Gai’don while he’s still drawing breath. And you know what? He’s right. If the boy dies before he can do what needs to be done, then his death will be pointless and the world will burn. As for his attitude that everyone can go screw themselves when he’s dead, well they can. He’ll have done his part and he won’t be around anymore.



And that makes no sense whatsoever. Rand’s a walking dead man. His choice is to die because that’s what he has to do in order to save a world that, in all reality, isn’t worth saving. But he’s going to do it anyway. The fact is that he does care…if nothing else, he cares about his three women and it is his love for them that is driving him to do what he’s doing, too. Why should he value his own life? The Creator only valued it enough to choose him as a sacrificial lamb. Other than Min and Nynaeve, no one else really cares if he dies so why should he? Especially when he has no choice as to whether or not he survives. He has a fate he was stuck with and his fate sucks. It should be good enough that he is going to accept it at all. To try to make him want to live when we all know there is no hope at all for his survival is like trying to remove someone's heart with a spoon. "Why a spoon, master?" "Because it'll hurt more, you twit." (can you name that movie? ) If there is anyone in WoT who doesn't deserve to hurt more, especially when it's just for the sake of hurting him, it's Rand. Sorry, them wanting him to care about his own life at this point is just sick.