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Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis Datakim Send a noteboard - 07/07/2010 06:03:46 AM
No, I disagree. That is exactly why the Dark One needs the Forsaken - It can't comprehend human motivation, and needs agents to work for the Shadow. It can appreciate human motivations to a point, such as anger, lust, greed and etc., but it is in no position to understand those things.


If the DO was so inept at understanding humans, how did it get the forsaken to join him in the first place? Sure, he has a network in place now, but back in the very beginning he had to recruit people on his own. And he knew enough about humans to do that very effectively.


An example would be humans and their pets. The owner might be made to realize the most rough reasons why their pet wants certain things through behavioral cues, but they do not understand why. Does the owner ever really know what goes through the dogs' head when it lies on it's back and lets itself be petted on it's stomach? Not really - the owner may however come to a pretty good idea by the pet's reaction.


As you say, even though our minds work differently we still have a reasonably good idea. Especially if we have lots and lots of experience with pets, and the DO certainly does with humans. It has had literally Ages to study and observe human behaviour.

He may have trouble understanding the most complex and obscure things, but I have no doubt he was fully capable of understanding what would be Rand's most likely reaction to what Semirhage did.

I don't have a pet, but I can still predict that if I were to go and torment some hardcore attack-dog (a rough analog to Rand) I doubt the dog would act nicely towards me. And while thats a simplistic analogy, I am also not a scholar of the field. I googled "animal psychology", and it seems we humans know more about animals than you think. Just like the DO knows more about humans than you think.


The Creator and the Dark One are simply not human, so to assume they understand complex human characteristics is missing the point. Even the Forsaken have no clue what the Dark One really wants, and they have had more direct interactions with the DO than any of the Lightsiders have had with the Creator.


They are also (other than Moridin) completely blinded by their greed for power/immortality and their selfishness. They see what they want to see. And this is something the DO seems to understand and take full advantage of.


If the Dark One, for example, was intelligent enough and understood human nature to the extent that it could predict and analyze human behavior, why did It fail so miserably to tempt Lews Therin or Rand? The basic and most direct answer is that everything Rand and the Lightsiders value and believe in are alien emotions or desires compared to what the Dark One knows. When Lews Therin and the Lightside Aes Sedai struggled so bitterly against the Dark One, I imagine that It wondered why they fought to defend the helpless and gave their lives when their seemingly was no hope. If the Dark One, for example, was not such an abject liar, it could simply tell Rand that if he joined the Darkside, all of his loved ones and friends would be spared - but the fact that the Dark One is such a faithless being is the exact reason it can't convert people such as Rand to It's cause. There are certain human characteristics that are not in the Dark Ones' nature to comprehend. In many ways, the Dark One is less capable than any one person because I truly don't think it can understand things which we take for granted.


Why did the DO fail to tempt LTT? Because it had nothing to offer to someone who unlike the Forsaken was smart enough to realise how utterly stupid it would be to join someone who wanted to blow up the universe. Someone who knew full well that any promises of the DO were deceptions and would not be fullfilled. How do you tempt someone when you have nothing real to offer, and your opponent knows it?

Failure to tempt LTT is not a sign of the DO being incapable of understanding humanity, but rather a sign of LTT being "incorruptible" and not wanting anything the DO had to offer.

There are countless examples of this in the history of the real world, with evil human dictators being unable to tempt and control everyone. That does not mean that they were aliens with no human impulses.

The DO may not have been able to tempt LTT or everyone, but he was able to manipulate enough of humanity to his side that LTT's side nearly lost. If he was as ignorant of human behaviour as you suggest, I don't think this would ever have happened. He would simply have told the world that he intended to destroy everything, and then be confused why all his followers were suddenly rejecting him.

For example, the DO knows full well that the Forsaken would reject him if they knew what he truly intended. So he keeps things secret and tells them only what they want to hear, things about immortality and becoming rulers and so on. He knows perfectly what they do want, and how to use those wants to control them. See for instance how he dangles the carrot of "Naeb'lis" ahead of them and uses that to make them do what he wants. That alone speaks of pretty good understanding of human behaviour.

Understanding what Rand would do when faced with Semirhage who had just tortured him and nearly used his body to kill Min, would be easier than that.
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Could Moridin be a false Nae'blis whom the DO wants to replace with Demandred? - 05/07/2010 05:11:43 PM 1367 Views
Not a chance... - 05/07/2010 06:30:38 PM 991 Views
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Assuming Verin is right - 06/07/2010 08:09:02 PM 643 Views
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Re: Assuming Verin is right - 06/07/2010 09:06:20 PM 643 Views
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Well I agree and disagree - 06/07/2010 09:55:49 PM 638 Views
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Says who? - 06/07/2010 10:04:31 PM 663 Views
Because Rand is the only one who can stop him from breaking free. - 06/07/2010 10:05:52 PM 632 Views
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Those are not all synonyms. - 06/07/2010 10:24:08 PM 717 Views
He had a 100 years in the AoL... - 07/07/2010 01:01:45 AM 644 Views
Sadly no. But it would have made for a more enthralling physical war... - 05/07/2010 06:54:11 PM 807 Views
Demandred? - 06/07/2010 12:44:56 AM 684 Views
Moridin is to blame because he is a symbol of RJ's choice to make this a metaphysical war... - 06/07/2010 12:56:32 PM 705 Views
So... - 06/07/2010 06:43:32 PM 571 Views
Agree with FT... - 06/07/2010 08:11:10 PM 656 Views
I think metaphysics is more important - 06/07/2010 09:18:49 PM 718 Views
I think that's kind of the whole point - 06/07/2010 10:58:19 PM 629 Views
Disagree - 06/07/2010 01:01:08 AM 620 Views
Martin is nuts! The characters... - 08/07/2010 07:55:22 AM 655 Views
That would be cool, but I don't see it. - 06/07/2010 06:31:18 AM 711 Views
Will be interesting to see... - 06/07/2010 07:19:41 AM 620 Views
Re: Will be interesting to see... - 06/07/2010 07:36:00 PM 586 Views
IMO, this idea is wrong... - 07/07/2010 07:42:48 AM 578 Views
Re: IMO, this idea is wrong... - 07/07/2010 07:25:46 PM 544 Views
I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 06/07/2010 02:25:47 PM 639 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 06/07/2010 07:52:54 PM 775 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 06/07/2010 08:03:12 PM 611 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 06/07/2010 08:58:38 PM 1188 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 06/07/2010 10:32:39 PM 722 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 07/07/2010 06:03:46 AM 814 Views
Re: I don't think so. But neither do I think Moridin is the true Nae'blis - 07/07/2010 03:58:19 PM 704 Views
I claimed long time ago that Demandred is an agent of Light - 07/07/2010 04:29:28 PM 687 Views
That would be awesome, and would impress me. - 07/07/2010 04:37:43 PM 551 Views
It would be awesome - 07/07/2010 06:05:58 PM 574 Views
But why would they expect someone to survive into the nhext Age? - 07/07/2010 06:47:12 PM 944 Views
Re: But why would they expect someone to survive into the nhext Age? - 07/07/2010 08:04:21 PM 603 Views
Re: But why would they expect someone to survive into the nhext Age? - 07/07/2010 11:38:40 PM 600 Views
Re: But why would they expect someone to survive into the nhext Age? - 08/07/2010 12:37:08 AM 575 Views
I used to think this was Graendal! *NM* - 07/07/2010 06:53:41 PM 301 Views
That would make Demandred my new favourite character - 08/07/2010 10:15:41 AM 695 Views
Re: That would make Demandred my new favourite character - 08/07/2010 03:23:36 PM 634 Views
Re: That would make Demandred my new favourite character - 08/07/2010 08:41:28 PM 574 Views
Agree. - 09/07/2010 12:19:16 AM 518 Views

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