Re: Perhaps Lan-fear meaning Night-Daughter would make more sense
DomA Send a noteboard - 18/06/2010 04:23:38 PM
The reason why the "lan" syllable in Lanfear is thought to be the one meaning daughter is because Siuan gave Min two aliases meaning daughter this and that, and the common syllable in all three is "la".
So it's possible Lanfear litterally translates as night-daughter, but the word order is different from English, ie: it's rather daugher-night.
Bob's on the right track, I think. It's quite possible the "n" (and "m" in other words, it's probably a matter of phonetics) - it is pronounced with a short or long "am" sound in front of vowels, and with "n" sound in front of consonants, and becomes "an" in full, or "'an" when it's a suffi at the end of syllable within a word mark the possessive and some other uses of "of" (as in "betrayer of Hope), a contraction of "an" used when the compound words are expanded into sentences.
It's as if you wrote "(for the) honor of the red eagle" (carai an caldazzar) as caraincaldazzar, which is probably grammatically incorrect, while compounding la'an'fear into Lanfear, or Sa an ael into Sammael, and Isha an ael into Ishamael and Har an into Haran are all correct, maybe because it's not a phrase but compounded names). In languages that aggregate root words into compounds like this, the rules are often fairly elaborate and not always intuitive to speakers of the family of langagues derived from latin/greek that tend to use suffixes and prefixes more than root words, and when we compound words to form another, they usually use the full words, as in "snowball" for "ball of snow". The rules for compounding roots/root words tend to vary from one level of language to the next, eg: between everyday use versus poetry vs religious use). If someone around know, for example, sanskrit (Fionwe?), he/she could explain it much better than I could.
Where it gets a step more complicated is that where to use "of" or the possessive of the/'s doesn' seem to follow the same grammatical rules as english (it seems the grammatical relationship between "Maidens" and "Spear" in Maidens of the Spear isn't the same as in English. It's tied by something else than "of the" in the OT (the word for that appears to be 'mai, or maybe far): the literal translation may be something like : brides/promised to the spear.
In any case, if we knew for sure which langague(s) Jordan used as model, it'd be a lot easier/safer to bring up theories. All we know is that he didn't make all the rules up, or based them just vaguely on languages like Tolkien. Jordan rather borrowed a grammatical structure from one or more existing languages, then he twisted those rules served him to twist existing and invented words. Tuatha'an, for instance, is a twisting following his OT grammatical rules of Tuatha Dé Danaan. In a lot of cases like this, Jordan "cheated", assigning arbitrary meanings to various syllables to obtain words that are very close to names from mythology and legends, to which he gave a different meaning. Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Sammael, Ishamael, Tuatha'an are all examples of this. In the case of Tuatha'an, the word Tuatha (old Irish) is the plural of Tuath and means "tribe"/"people" (the full expression means The tribes of the Goddess Ana/Ana/Anan/Dana/Danan). Jordan shifted this so "Tu" became his OT word for Travelling/Who travel/nomadic and Atha became people (the final 'an is an OT plural mark). Then he re used the new word "atha" in other situations, forming for instance Athan Miere (he remained Irish for this one, as Miere is Old Irish for Sea... I don't know the grammar, but Sea Folk/Tribes in old Irish could have given Tuatha Dé Miere). The vocabulary and "root words" for the Old Tongue comes from all over the map and eras. Jordan's aim wasn't to create a fictitious language so much as contriving a way to get "twisted" versions of real words to fit his "the wheel turns and the same things come and go" concept. The grammatical framework he imposed for the OT made it more coherent, and, I would guess, made it simpler for him to find ways to twists the words/names he wanted. Sooner or later you run out of inspiration for twisting words while remaining coherent. The basic OT grammar he adopted took care of this for him.
it's not a phrase but compounded names). In languages that aggregate root words into compounds like this, the rules are often fairly elaborate and not always intuitive to speakers of the family of langagues derived from latin/greek that tend to use suffixes and prefixes more than root words, and when we compound words to form another, they usually use the full words, as in "snowball" for "ball of snow". The rules for compounding roots/root words tend to vary from one level of language to the next, eg: between everyday use versus poetry vs religious use). If someone around know, for example, sanskrit (Fionwe?), he/she could explain it much better than I could.
Where it gets a step more complicated is that where to use "of" or the possessive of the/'s doesn' seem to follow the same grammatical rules as english (it seems the grammatical relationship between "Maidens" and "Spear" in Maidens of the Spear isn't the same as in English. It's tied by something else than "of the" in the OT (the word for that appears to be 'mai, or maybe far): the literal translation may be something like : brides/promised to the spear.
In any case, if we knew for sure which langague(s) Jordan used as model, it'd be a lot easier/safer to bring up theories. All we know is that he didn't make all the rules up, or based them just vaguely on languages like Tolkien. Jordan rather borrowed a grammatical structure from one or more existing languages, then he twisted those rules served him to twist existing and invented words. Tuatha'an, for instance, is a twisting following his OT grammatical rules of Tuatha Dé Danaan. In a lot of cases like this, Jordan "cheated", assigning arbitrary meanings to various syllables to obtain words that are very close to names from mythology and legends, to which he gave a different meaning. Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Sammael, Ishamael, Tuatha'an are all examples of this. In the case of Tuatha'an, the word Tuatha (old Irish) is the plural of Tuath and means "tribe"/"people" (the full expression means The tribes of the Goddess Ana/Ana/Anan/Dana/Danan). Jordan shifted this so "Tu" became his OT word for Travelling/Who travel/nomadic and Atha became people (the final 'an is an OT plural mark). Then he re used the new word "atha" in other situations, forming for instance Athan Miere (he remained Irish for this one, as Miere is Old Irish for Sea). The vocabulary and "root words" for the Old Tongue comes from all over the map and eras. Jordan's aim wasn't to create a fictitious language so much as contriving a way to get "twisted" versions of real words to fit his "the wheel turns and the same things come and go" concept. The grammatical framework he imposed for the OT made it more coherent, and, I would guess, made it simpler for him to find ways to twists the words/names he wanted. Sooner or later you run out of inspiration for twisting words while remaining coherent. The basic OT grammar he adopted took care of this for him.
So it's possible Lanfear litterally translates as night-daughter, but the word order is different from English, ie: it's rather daugher-night.
Bob's on the right track, I think. It's quite possible the "n" (and "m" in other words, it's probably a matter of phonetics) - it is pronounced with a short or long "am" sound in front of vowels, and with "n" sound in front of consonants, and becomes "an" in full, or "'an" when it's a suffi at the end of syllable within a word mark the possessive and some other uses of "of" (as in "betrayer of Hope), a contraction of "an" used when the compound words are expanded into sentences.
It's as if you wrote "(for the) honor of the red eagle" (carai an caldazzar) as caraincaldazzar, which is probably grammatically incorrect, while compounding la'an'fear into Lanfear, or Sa an ael into Sammael, and Isha an ael into Ishamael and Har an into Haran are all correct, maybe because it's not a phrase but compounded names). In languages that aggregate root words into compounds like this, the rules are often fairly elaborate and not always intuitive to speakers of the family of langagues derived from latin/greek that tend to use suffixes and prefixes more than root words, and when we compound words to form another, they usually use the full words, as in "snowball" for "ball of snow". The rules for compounding roots/root words tend to vary from one level of language to the next, eg: between everyday use versus poetry vs religious use). If someone around know, for example, sanskrit (Fionwe?), he/she could explain it much better than I could.
Where it gets a step more complicated is that where to use "of" or the possessive of the/'s doesn' seem to follow the same grammatical rules as english (it seems the grammatical relationship between "Maidens" and "Spear" in Maidens of the Spear isn't the same as in English. It's tied by something else than "of the" in the OT (the word for that appears to be 'mai, or maybe far): the literal translation may be something like : brides/promised to the spear.
In any case, if we knew for sure which langague(s) Jordan used as model, it'd be a lot easier/safer to bring up theories. All we know is that he didn't make all the rules up, or based them just vaguely on languages like Tolkien. Jordan rather borrowed a grammatical structure from one or more existing languages, then he twisted those rules served him to twist existing and invented words. Tuatha'an, for instance, is a twisting following his OT grammatical rules of Tuatha Dé Danaan. In a lot of cases like this, Jordan "cheated", assigning arbitrary meanings to various syllables to obtain words that are very close to names from mythology and legends, to which he gave a different meaning. Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Sammael, Ishamael, Tuatha'an are all examples of this. In the case of Tuatha'an, the word Tuatha (old Irish) is the plural of Tuath and means "tribe"/"people" (the full expression means The tribes of the Goddess Ana/Ana/Anan/Dana/Danan). Jordan shifted this so "Tu" became his OT word for Travelling/Who travel/nomadic and Atha became people (the final 'an is an OT plural mark). Then he re used the new word "atha" in other situations, forming for instance Athan Miere (he remained Irish for this one, as Miere is Old Irish for Sea... I don't know the grammar, but Sea Folk/Tribes in old Irish could have given Tuatha Dé Miere). The vocabulary and "root words" for the Old Tongue comes from all over the map and eras. Jordan's aim wasn't to create a fictitious language so much as contriving a way to get "twisted" versions of real words to fit his "the wheel turns and the same things come and go" concept. The grammatical framework he imposed for the OT made it more coherent, and, I would guess, made it simpler for him to find ways to twists the words/names he wanted. Sooner or later you run out of inspiration for twisting words while remaining coherent. The basic OT grammar he adopted took care of this for him.
it's not a phrase but compounded names). In languages that aggregate root words into compounds like this, the rules are often fairly elaborate and not always intuitive to speakers of the family of langagues derived from latin/greek that tend to use suffixes and prefixes more than root words, and when we compound words to form another, they usually use the full words, as in "snowball" for "ball of snow". The rules for compounding roots/root words tend to vary from one level of language to the next, eg: between everyday use versus poetry vs religious use). If someone around know, for example, sanskrit (Fionwe?), he/she could explain it much better than I could.
Where it gets a step more complicated is that where to use "of" or the possessive of the/'s doesn' seem to follow the same grammatical rules as english (it seems the grammatical relationship between "Maidens" and "Spear" in Maidens of the Spear isn't the same as in English. It's tied by something else than "of the" in the OT (the word for that appears to be 'mai, or maybe far): the literal translation may be something like : brides/promised to the spear.
In any case, if we knew for sure which langague(s) Jordan used as model, it'd be a lot easier/safer to bring up theories. All we know is that he didn't make all the rules up, or based them just vaguely on languages like Tolkien. Jordan rather borrowed a grammatical structure from one or more existing languages, then he twisted those rules served him to twist existing and invented words. Tuatha'an, for instance, is a twisting following his OT grammatical rules of Tuatha Dé Danaan. In a lot of cases like this, Jordan "cheated", assigning arbitrary meanings to various syllables to obtain words that are very close to names from mythology and legends, to which he gave a different meaning. Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Sammael, Ishamael, Tuatha'an are all examples of this. In the case of Tuatha'an, the word Tuatha (old Irish) is the plural of Tuath and means "tribe"/"people" (the full expression means The tribes of the Goddess Ana/Ana/Anan/Dana/Danan). Jordan shifted this so "Tu" became his OT word for Travelling/Who travel/nomadic and Atha became people (the final 'an is an OT plural mark). Then he re used the new word "atha" in other situations, forming for instance Athan Miere (he remained Irish for this one, as Miere is Old Irish for Sea). The vocabulary and "root words" for the Old Tongue comes from all over the map and eras. Jordan's aim wasn't to create a fictitious language so much as contriving a way to get "twisted" versions of real words to fit his "the wheel turns and the same things come and go" concept. The grammatical framework he imposed for the OT made it more coherent, and, I would guess, made it simpler for him to find ways to twists the words/names he wanted. Sooner or later you run out of inspiration for twisting words while remaining coherent. The basic OT grammar he adopted took care of this for him.
This message last edited by DomA on 18/06/2010 at 04:58:04 PM
Forsaken translations
17/06/2010 09:16:36 AM
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Yeah...
17/06/2010 09:31:15 AM
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Semirhage is named as "The Lady of Pain" in KoD, by Rand...
17/06/2010 11:14:56 AM
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Do Semirhage & Bel'al actually mean those things or are they other nicknames?
17/06/2010 11:38:18 AM
- 1241 Views
Nice ideas!
17/06/2010 02:10:43 PM
- 1297 Views
The beauty of a re-read is that there are so many little gems I'd forgotten
17/06/2010 02:48:19 PM
- 1072 Views
Re: The beauty of a re-read is that there are so many little gems I'd forgotten
17/06/2010 04:43:48 PM
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Gai'shain = those sworn to peace in battle
17/06/2010 09:22:02 PM
- 1125 Views
Gaidin = Brother to Battle ... which is what I think the OP meant to use
17/06/2010 09:32:20 PM
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I always thought Lanfear probably translated to something closer to a Moon translation
17/06/2010 02:43:04 PM
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it's the other way around...
17/06/2010 02:58:33 PM
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good point
17/06/2010 03:13:17 PM
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Re: good point
17/06/2010 04:05:50 PM
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Not to mention she STILL hasn't earned a 3rd (or in 4th) name
17/06/2010 04:16:57 PM
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What about Cyndane
17/06/2010 04:48:03 PM
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It must be her favorite one, since it's the only one she actually earned *NM*
17/06/2010 05:43:41 PM
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Well she earned Mierin *NM*
17/06/2010 08:27:05 PM
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how so? I figured mom and dad gave that one too her *NM*
17/06/2010 08:36:24 PM
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she earned it by being born... ha! gotcha *NM*
17/06/2010 08:39:10 PM
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HA! But technically I think her mother earned that *NM*
17/06/2010 08:58:30 PM
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Re: good point
17/06/2010 04:47:01 PM
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Again, a self-proclaimed ownership aimed at making her seem more impressive
17/06/2010 05:55:12 PM
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I disagree
17/06/2010 06:20:08 PM
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Personally I think that order was off the cuff
17/06/2010 08:55:28 PM
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Re: Personally I think that order was off the cuff
17/06/2010 09:02:06 PM
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Disagree
17/06/2010 09:28:51 PM
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Re: Disagree
17/06/2010 09:41:23 PM
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I'm not being very clear
17/06/2010 10:14:10 PM
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Re: I'm not being very clear
18/06/2010 08:06:56 AM
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Re: I'm not being very clear
18/06/2010 03:33:12 PM
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Re: I'm not being very clear
18/06/2010 04:35:12 PM
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The point isn't if Lanfear has the skill, it's that it was poorly shown.
18/06/2010 05:31:11 PM
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The statement makes clear that those 6 were all quite impressive
17/06/2010 10:51:49 PM
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I don't see that bearing out in the text at all
17/06/2010 10:57:36 PM
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Like Etzel I don't agree
17/06/2010 08:30:37 PM
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I think she's a weak villain
17/06/2010 08:58:01 PM
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Re: I think she's a weak villain
17/06/2010 09:03:47 PM
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and slaughter the Seanchan empress on her own throne thowing the empire into chaos
17/06/2010 09:30:27 PM
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Semirhage has done more than anyone since Ishy destroyed the Ten Nations
18/06/2010 02:06:30 AM
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Regarding "Demandred" ...
17/06/2010 04:51:43 PM
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I always thought it was a coincidence
17/06/2010 08:32:39 PM
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Lan/Lanfear isn't a coincidence...
18/06/2010 12:19:58 AM
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Re: Lan/Lanfear isn't a coincidence...
20/06/2010 07:01:55 PM
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Perhaps Lan-fear meaning Night-Daughter would make more sense
17/06/2010 06:00:35 PM
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Re: Perhaps Lan-fear meaning Night-Daughter would make more sense
18/06/2010 04:23:38 PM
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And Dragon translations...
17/06/2010 10:53:02 PM
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Re: And Dragon translations...
17/06/2010 11:01:25 PM
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Why would they call themselves "Spears of the fictional creature"?
18/06/2010 12:29:49 AM
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It was meant as a joke, but really it could be some generic term rather than meaning
18/06/2010 06:00:36 AM
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Except that they don't know what a 'Dragon' is, except as it relates to Lews Therin/Rand
18/06/2010 05:11:30 PM
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like I said, I was just making a joke of it ... you are quite right with "Rand's Spears"
18/06/2010 05:32:42 PM
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But of course the NT word for Dragon isn't Dragon
18/06/2010 05:45:34 PM
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If "aman" is the Old Tongue name for Dragon, maybe "DEMANdred" contains a reference to Dragon too...
20/06/2010 08:13:35 PM
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"Dragon Wannabe" *NM*
20/06/2010 09:23:09 PM
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Lizard? *NM*
20/06/2010 10:04:21 PM
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"Scaled Worm"... though I doubt he'd take that name up in pride . *NM*
22/06/2010 01:23:03 AM
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It's probably too much to attempt to guess at the meanings of words...
17/06/2010 10:58:06 PM
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