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Very interesting! Sidious Send a noteboard - 17/06/2010 08:34:36 PM
This may be rather obvious to some people, but I've always found it nifty.

Sammael - Destroyer of Hope
Ishamael - Betrayer of Hope

Thus we can conclude that 'mael' probably means hope in the Old Tongue. It's a nice small little attention to detail played by RJ. It also insinuates that all of the Forsaken have names that can be directly translated.


He mores than insinuated, we know these aren't names but epiteths of scorn the people used for these people and that the Forsaken adopted as names. They all have a meaning.

This comes from the tradition of the honorifics (which also have a meaning), no doubt. Instead of honorific titles, the people gave the Forsaken a scorn third name, eg Elan Morin Ishamael (that's probably how they refer to them when they wanted to identify who they were. Not "Ishamael, who was the philosopher Elan Morin Tenodrai once", but "Elan Morin Betrayer of Hope", and then just "Ishamael" after a while. The Forsaken turned that around and adopted those names of infamy as their only name, made them badges of honor. To the AOLers (and we see this enduring with the Seanchan), honorifics mattered a lot. That is why Shai'tan bothers to strip the dead Forsaken or their name and re christened them as he wishes. The gesture is meaningful to them (especially to Lanfear, who not only created her own scorn name and made it flattering, and who is the only one who's got a very insulting name now - though being named after a dagger can also be pejorative and implies you're the weapon/told whielded in the hand of someone else and moving as this Hand wishes. Shaidar Haran is the Hand the names refer too, obviously).

Therefore with Lanfear, we might be looking at Lan-Fear ... Daughter-Night, if the Old Tingue can be translated so crudely. Of course this means Lan is a Daughter, which is fun to ponder.


It's a little bit more complicated than that, I'm afraid. The grammar and rules for compound words are funky, and we just have enough examples to puzzle out rules exist, not what they are. It's not based on languages like English or French (some think he followed some rules of word formation from sanskrit, mixing it up with other grammar rules). We don't really know if lan is the word for daughter. The "stand alone" word to say daughter isn't necessarily the root word meaning daughter in compound words, it is probably la + something else, or something else + la (the "something else" being another root word, the one for person/human being, for instance. Let's say fictitiously it's "ay". Just "daughter" would be said ayla. Or the full word may be lana or lanna (quite a few WOT names end with that), the root form la (if there's only one, that is... lan may be a variant). If you form a compound with it, you use the root "la". If la is within the word, a "n" mark it's a root word and not a syllable, thus "lan-something". If it's the termination of the compound, the n is added between the previous syllable and "la", thus Sere-n-la. We know "la" is a root word for daughter, as we have two examples of its use. "n" is often used for the plural of words ending in "a" (Zomora/Zomoran - and it's probably formed of the roots zo and ora), but we don't know for sure the function of a letter like "n" in a compound like Lanfear, if it's part of the root or a marker. It may mark the possessive, but it rather seems to indicate "la" isn't a syllable in a word but a root word within the compound (the same way, I don't think mael means "hope" or "sam" means destroyer as such. I think "sa" is a prefix or root word with the general meaning of "to end", perhaps "to end voluntarily" or "to end with violence" and the "m" turns the prefix to noun "someone who ends something", or "a person or thing that ends something violently" I think the root word for "hope" is ael, not mael - and even the final "l" may not be part of the root, but transforming it, or marking a case). When a root word makes it impossible to aggregate to it a voiced marker like "n/m", the root words seems to be separated by an apostrophe in writing, and (in real languages) it often indicates a longer pause than usual between the two parts of the word.

You see there why there would be so many ways to translate the OT into the new: the root words/prefixes/suffixes often express more general concepts (there'd be a limited, if large, amount of those) rather than an individual, fixed meaning. In the OT, you could probably define anything by aggregating concept-words when the more common/usual vocabulary fell short. In short, it was really complex, subtle and creative.. and it formed patterns of meaning from threads/roots.

This is what the NT simplified: it doesn't form words from root words, or when it did it fixed the form. It has set in stone some AOL compounds to form a fixed vocabulary, gradually transforming these words(through pronounciation, through simplified spelling etc.) so the old root words are no longer recognizable, nor understood (an example would be Amyrlin, and in the fourth Age how the meaning of Tar Valon will get lost when the word Tar will be merged into Arvalon). So in the NT the words became more like words like European languages, and someone who knows can recognize latin or greek prefixes or an old concept word like "aqua"/waterin them, while the rest don't even know. The rules of compound words are longer understood by those speaking only the NT - and they go back to OT names for special things they don't really have a word for (like Asha'man - interesting this one, as Asha means guardian, and isha means its opposite: betrayer. The root word is thus "sha", with a positive vs. negative prefix). In the OT, sa-m-m-ael might possibly translated in such various ways as "crusher of wishes", "ender of dreams" or "destroyer of hope". It's hard to be sure, because a lot of concepts vary from one language to another, and words that are like synonyms in English aren't in a fairly close language like French - so wishes/dreams may have nothing to do with the concept of hope in the OT (fictitiously speaking, as RJ went nowhere as far as that in his language creation, except for a few words for which he mentionned the different possible meanings)

"h" appears to be another sound/marker you can use in some words to break root words. Semir/h/age, Ra/h/vin, Mog/h/edien (one would be the root for spider or even insect, and the other word qualifies the species. So Mog'kal could be "red spider" and "moghedien" is specifically a small venomous species of spider that hides to fall on its preys by surprise)

La/n/fear, Grae/n/dal, Dema/n/dred. Mesa/a/na (the double wovels and consonants are also a divider/marker of some sort, as in "Tuath'a'an" or Cal/l/andor.

Then, Sa/m/m/ael, Isha/m/ael, Balt/h/amel, Agi/n/or.

The language is fairly complex, for instance some of the root words can be abbreviated in some instances (miere avron becoming m'avron, and these perhaps are only allowed in poetry/versification, and there appears to be markers of emphasis too (that transform "dedicated" into "those who are dedicated", and "shadow falling" into "where the Shadow falls". Etc.

There are also subtelties, like the variations between Shadar/Shadow and Shaidar/Dark or Darkness (ai instead of a may denote an emphasis, eg: ael means hope, but aiel refers to someone who dedicates himself to turning hope/dreams into reality. "aiel" wouldn't be the root word for dedication, but mean dedicated only in this context ). The "root" Shai for dark is also present in Shai'tan (tan appears to be an hyperbole of some kind, in this context translating as Great Lord. My guess is that "tan" is indifferently "god", "creator", "the great lord", or quite possibly also "the source". xx'tan would be the True Source, the complete form of the root word would mean the Creator, honorifics may translate as "the source of the light"/"the great lord of the light", the "lightgiver" etc..)

Generally speaking, there appears to be not one set of rules to the OT, but several, that is there are several levels in the languages, far more complicated then the differences between Shakespeare and street slang. The rules and word formations aren't the same in everyday speech and poetry, for example, or to form proper names (where abbreviations of root words, or the use of more poetic forms of some words may be common). The names of the Forsaken may not all follow the "everyday speech" rules of the more casual words we know about (very few, except for those forming proper names for people, places, groups etc. actually).

I think that considering they're all formed by root words and we don't even know for sure how to spot them in words (and thus it's almost impossible to differentiate a meaningless syllable in a two syllable root word from a real root word), it's pretty much pointless to try to puzzle out the names of the Forsaken until we get the encyclopedia. RJ spoke of the possibility to include his OT grammar, compound rules and vocabulary of compounds, and I guess his list of established root words/suffixes/prefixes as well. Surely Harriet means to include that. He made up just a few hundred compounds, IRRC, made up the rest as he needed it.

I've been searching through Old Tongue quotes in the series looking for hints to decipher potential translations for other Forsaken names.


There's not a whole lot. The names we can puzzle out are those RJ gave us. We would have had to guess "moridin" is death unless he told us, because we couldn't isolate the word in the Horn verse (and the lucky guess would have come up with Grave, not "death" - it's another example of concept word rather than words as we have them in English). Most likely, Moridin is the stand alone concept word for death, but it's not the root word for death in compound words. It may not mean grave literally either, in the sense that it can be used for burial ground, only when you use "the grave" figuratively for "death" in a poetic context.

I've come up short so far, but would like to know if anyone else has found anything. The only thing I've found is that Moridin is also found on the Horn of Valere, which is a nice direct translation of Death i.e. The Grave is no bar to my Call.

Osan'gar and Aran'gar are named after left and right handed daggers, so Osan might mean left and Aran might mean right, if those translations were direct. 'gar' might mean blade, or weapon.


Could also be the root concept word for anything sharp or that cuts. We don't really know what is a concept word and what isn't, and how basic or elaborate they are.

Actually, here's something new for you, you have it upside down: Aran'gar is the left-handed dagger and Osan'gar the right-handed dagger (I know this because the same prefixes are used for eastern/western in some place names).

The root words/prefixes are os and ar (al or ali in other words), likely not osan and aran. Os is a root word/prefix for right, but also for east, and ar is left/west.

Again, we can't say we know the words to say "the left" or "the east etc. - that's most likely more complex words starting with Os and Ar. We know two of their root forms in compound words (Ar and Al, or Ali, and Osan and Osen), not the words for the left and the right (wich is more likely longer words. If we know the words, my best guess best is that they appear in full in the place names, thus the word for "the left" is maybe Alin or Alind, and the word for "the right" is Osen or Osend. The words also mean east and west. North and South probably are the same word from in front and behind, or up or down). In the Aran'gar/Osan'gar compounds, the prefixes/roots probably means, or implies "held by" the left/right (hand, implied only). This may have something to do with the "a" or "an" termination of the prefix.


There is a scene where Moiraine translates Ji'e'toh, and comes up with various forms to try and directly translate it. The Aiel say that she's close to the translation, but still misses the point. It may be like that with most AOL translations, especially considering Moridin means death and grave, and while they're related, they can also be totally different.
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Forsaken translations - 17/06/2010 09:16:36 AM 2200 Views
Yeah... - 17/06/2010 09:31:15 AM 1492 Views
Semirhage is named as "The Lady of Pain" in KoD, by Rand... - 17/06/2010 11:14:56 AM 1823 Views
You are right... - 17/06/2010 11:31:05 AM 1390 Views
Do Semirhage & Bel'al actually mean those things or are they other nicknames? - 17/06/2010 11:38:18 AM 1241 Views
On Be'lal - 17/06/2010 11:42:31 AM 1167 Views
Nice ideas! - 17/06/2010 02:10:43 PM 1297 Views
Gai'shain = those sworn to peace in battle - 17/06/2010 09:22:02 PM 1125 Views
Gaidin = Brother to Battle ... which is what I think the OP meant to use - 17/06/2010 09:32:20 PM 1067 Views
Presumably he meant "Dai Shan", or "Battle Lord", as he said. - 17/06/2010 10:37:07 PM 1143 Views
or that *NM* - 17/06/2010 10:45:49 PM 657 Views
About Aginor - 17/06/2010 12:50:04 PM 1441 Views
Great! - 17/06/2010 02:11:47 PM 1269 Views
Some Old Tongue translations - 17/06/2010 01:34:18 PM 1168 Views
ah Thanks! *NM* - 17/06/2010 02:12:00 PM 672 Views
Good luck with that - 17/06/2010 02:36:36 PM 1227 Views
Re: Good luck with that - 17/06/2010 03:24:52 PM 1056 Views
Very interesting! - 17/06/2010 08:34:36 PM 1136 Views
As always, - 20/06/2010 02:25:07 PM 1063 Views
I always thought Lanfear probably translated to something closer to a Moon translation - 17/06/2010 02:43:04 PM 1350 Views
it's the other way around... - 17/06/2010 02:58:33 PM 1121 Views
good point - 17/06/2010 03:13:17 PM 1114 Views
Re: good point - 17/06/2010 04:05:50 PM 1174 Views
Not to mention she STILL hasn't earned a 3rd (or in 4th) name - 17/06/2010 04:16:57 PM 1158 Views
What about Cyndane - 17/06/2010 04:48:03 PM 1048 Views
It must be her favorite one, since it's the only one she actually earned *NM* - 17/06/2010 05:43:41 PM 585 Views
Well she earned Mierin *NM* - 17/06/2010 08:27:05 PM 733 Views
how so? I figured mom and dad gave that one too her *NM* - 17/06/2010 08:36:24 PM 613 Views
she earned it by being born... ha! gotcha *NM* - 17/06/2010 08:39:10 PM 573 Views
HA! But technically I think her mother earned that *NM* - 17/06/2010 08:58:30 PM 501 Views
well she earned Eronaile by virtue of her genetics *NM* - 17/06/2010 09:04:36 PM 589 Views
Tee hee ... I'd credit her father on that one *NM* - 17/06/2010 09:31:19 PM 630 Views
Re: good point - 17/06/2010 04:47:01 PM 1169 Views
Again, a self-proclaimed ownership aimed at making her seem more impressive - 17/06/2010 05:55:12 PM 1076 Views
I disagree - 17/06/2010 06:20:08 PM 1183 Views
Personally I think that order was off the cuff - 17/06/2010 08:55:28 PM 1290 Views
Re: Personally I think that order was off the cuff - 17/06/2010 09:02:06 PM 1260 Views
Disagree - 17/06/2010 09:28:51 PM 1204 Views
Re: Disagree - 17/06/2010 09:41:23 PM 1142 Views
I'm not being very clear - 17/06/2010 10:14:10 PM 1146 Views
Re: I'm not being very clear - 18/06/2010 08:06:56 AM 3515 Views
Re: I'm not being very clear - 18/06/2010 03:33:12 PM 1157 Views
Re: I'm not being very clear - 18/06/2010 04:35:12 PM 1011 Views
The point isn't if Lanfear has the skill, it's that it was poorly shown. - 18/06/2010 05:31:11 PM 1133 Views
I think it's shown well - 18/06/2010 06:10:55 PM 1262 Views
your own examples show only OP prowess though! - 18/06/2010 06:54:38 PM 1252 Views
How can you say Semirhage didn't achieve anything? - 18/06/2010 01:59:44 AM 1200 Views
I'm partial to Sammael myself. - 18/06/2010 02:24:49 AM 1004 Views
The statement makes clear that those 6 were all quite impressive - 17/06/2010 10:51:49 PM 967 Views
I don't see that bearing out in the text at all - 17/06/2010 10:57:36 PM 1177 Views
Well, with this point I don't disagree.. *NM* - 17/06/2010 11:10:34 PM 1016 Views
- 17/06/2010 11:12:58 PM 1146 Views
Lanfear's motives were never Shadow-driven - 20/06/2010 06:47:22 PM 1145 Views
not ballsy, just psycho - 20/06/2010 07:25:46 PM 1162 Views
Like Etzel I don't agree - 17/06/2010 08:30:37 PM 1039 Views
I think she's a weak villain - 17/06/2010 08:58:01 PM 1012 Views
Re: I think she's a weak villain - 17/06/2010 09:03:47 PM 1094 Views
Semirhage has done more than anyone since Ishy destroyed the Ten Nations - 18/06/2010 02:06:30 AM 1128 Views
Regarding "Demandred" ... - 17/06/2010 04:51:43 PM 1117 Views
I always thought it was a coincidence - 17/06/2010 08:32:39 PM 1208 Views
Lan/Lanfear isn't a coincidence... - 18/06/2010 12:19:58 AM 1058 Views
Wow. I'm not quite sure where this came from... *NM* - 18/06/2010 05:24:25 PM 556 Views
Re: Lan/Lanfear isn't a coincidence... - 20/06/2010 07:01:55 PM 1220 Views
No, it was supposed to be a joke. - 20/06/2010 07:23:19 PM 1130 Views
Re: No, it was supposed to be a joke. - 21/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 1177 Views
Re: I always thought it was a coincidence - 18/06/2010 05:20:11 PM 1170 Views
Perhaps Lan-fear meaning Night-Daughter would make more sense - 17/06/2010 06:00:35 PM 1106 Views
Interesting *NM* - 17/06/2010 08:33:03 PM 654 Views
Re: Perhaps Lan-fear meaning Night-Daughter would make more sense - 18/06/2010 04:23:38 PM 1327 Views
Regarding "Far Dareis Mai" ... - 18/06/2010 05:28:41 PM 1056 Views
We also have din in Mera'din/Brotherless and far in Far Madding - 18/06/2010 08:16:14 PM 1158 Views
Re: Regarding "Far Dareis Mai" ... - 20/06/2010 03:56:38 AM 1279 Views
And Dragon translations... - 17/06/2010 10:53:02 PM 1225 Views
Re: And Dragon translations... - 17/06/2010 11:01:25 PM 1098 Views
But of course the NT word for Dragon isn't Dragon - 18/06/2010 05:45:34 PM 1303 Views
Ah yes, that sounds reasonable. *NM* - 18/06/2010 08:28:54 PM 617 Views
If "aman" is the Old Tongue name for Dragon, maybe "DEMANdred" contains a reference to Dragon too... - 20/06/2010 08:13:35 PM 1325 Views
"Dragon Wannabe" *NM* - 20/06/2010 09:23:09 PM 458 Views
Lizard? *NM* - 20/06/2010 10:04:21 PM 619 Views
"Scaled Worm"... though I doubt he'd take that name up in pride . *NM* - 22/06/2010 01:23:03 AM 550 Views
It's probably too much to attempt to guess at the meanings of words... - 17/06/2010 10:58:06 PM 872 Views
A nice article about the Old Tongue and my ramblings - 18/06/2010 11:14:24 AM 7297 Views

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