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yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3 darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM
Dammit Sidious... this is getting irritating as hell. Silviana clearly states that in the night when Egwene will surely gain her full strength, Barasine alone is enough to shield her, but she wants one more person to prevent trickery from Egwene.

Thus, Barasine alone can shield Egwene, meaning Egwene cannot be more than twice as strong as her.


We know for a FACT that Amys cannot hold Egwene for more than a few moments in FoH. If Barasine is weaker than Amys, how on earth can Barasine hold Egwene if Egwene is NOT under the influence of forkroot?

Either RJ was wrong, or BS is wrong. So, who do YOU think is wrong?


Barasine could shield Egwene in KoD, so it was RJ all the way.

Now, Amys said she was exhausted by the effort, but she still did hold the shield. So it isn't true at all that Amys cannot shield Egwene.

By my list, both are stronger than half Egwene's strength, and thus both can indeed shield her. Which is verified by the text.


Amys is at that point where she can hold Egwene with great effort, but if Egwene tried, she might be able to break the shield. Egwene did try and couldn't break it, but Amys said she needed to release saidar because Egwene was too strong.

Either way, this debate has gone off on a tangent. Neither Melaine or Amys are weak women, and Egwene is stronger than both combined. Egwene isn't even top strength - all the Forsaken and some good guys exceed her in power. Logically, the average woman cannot cluster around 50% of maximum strength. If so, then Moiraine was really retarded to think that it would take Aviendha and Egwene to 'perhaps' match one of the Forsaken.

Also it takes at least five women to hold a high powered male. Siuan said that Logain would have escaped if it had been less than six women, which is acceptable proof to me that women peak at 10-20. If they're around 50, then Logain is one hell of a guy.


Probable that the weakest women in Salidar were holding Logain as that seems to be the way things work (from Cadsuane's thoughts in TGS).

But even then it seems unlikely that Logain would be able to break the shield of 5 when Rand can't break a shield held by 4 in the same book when we know Rand is already stronger than most of the FS. Given what we know of the women involved with Rands shield the 3 who were stilled were all pretty average, Shashalle being the strongest and she barely stronger than Samitsu. Odds are the shield on Rand was held by overall stronger women, but that would mean the average on Rand was a 25 if the average on Logain was 20.

Personally I think the Logain shielding comment is the odd man out given that we've seen others in the FS level being held by much weaker circles. Semrihage, Rand and Nynaeve have all been held by such. Or perhaps Logain is just particularly strong in Spirit etc... no matter how you look at that quote though, it doesn't fit with the other situations.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM 2200 Views
Some good RAFOs here Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:31:56 PM 967 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:36:55 PM 884 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking! Logain - 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM 1125 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM 1001 Views
See the question again man! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM 961 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM 1039 Views
How? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:41 PM 979 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM 974 Views
Think logically for a moment... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM 819 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM 1064 Views
Aviendha did in FoH... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM 820 Views
Nope! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM 982 Views
Your quotes are faulty Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM 994 Views
In what sense though? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM 985 Views
Forkroot Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM 920 Views
Again... later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM 767 Views
What do you mean? Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM 970 Views
See below... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM 885 Views
Re: See below... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM 931 Views
I just did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM 748 Views
Well then we disagree Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM 948 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM 799 Views
Ah, you mean later later ... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM 893 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM 993 Views
Yes I know Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM 983 Views
I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM 971 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM 962 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM 898 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM 926 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM 993 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:29:04 PM 1092 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:47:00 PM 883 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe? Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM 811 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM 889 Views
In that case, there is no problem... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM 859 Views
But that isn't what the text says... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM 769 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then? Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM 971 Views
She also says Egwene is Aes Sedai in the same sentence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:25:16 PM 1010 Views
Yeah, both were RJ Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM 878 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM 976 Views
Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM 947 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM 826 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM 932 Views
Re: Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:43:41 PM 794 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:50:23 PM 971 Views
I haven't refuted? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:53:17 PM 996 Views
Here's what is clear: Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM 864 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM 853 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM 772 Views
At least we agree on one thing Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM 863 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:32:06 PM 780 Views
Re: No... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:43:59 PM 952 Views
fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:57:25 PM 794 Views
Re: Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:12:29 PM 903 Views
Re: fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:34:28 PM 907 Views
Thought on this darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:09:29 PM 818 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3 darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM 703 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM 805 Views
That was kind of my point... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:19:23 PM 542 Views
of course Katerine would have complained darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 12:53:31 PM 916 Views
The rate forkroot wears off? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM 907 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all! fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM 824 Views
Typos, screwed up what I meant Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/06/2010 02:31:50 AM 835 Views
You are... fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 04:32:47 AM 1042 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM 701 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM 835 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM 800 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM 813 Views
Easy... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM 781 Views
What has that got to do with it? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM 964 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half.. Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM 869 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM 1012 Views
I can agree with that. Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM 770 Views
How can you agree with it? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:13:55 PM 978 Views
I'm thinking Berowin here... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:16:41 PM 970 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:18:19 PM 842 Views
... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM 752 Views
Agreed, but... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM 924 Views
Re: Agreed, but... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM 722 Views
Good point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM 941 Views
Or, you know, you're wrong? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:55 PM 807 Views
Re: Good point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM 1005 Views
We've had this discussion before darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM 906 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM 808 Views
The Bell Curve fits perfectly if one simple fact is true... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:31:31 PM 757 Views
Or, you know, you can stop misinterpreting Aviendha... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:40:05 PM 881 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM 742 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM 756 Views
Re: Uhhh? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM 756 Views
DUDE! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM 784 Views
Re: DUDE! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:09:11 PM 768 Views
I explained... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:27:44 PM 763 Views
Re: I explained... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:45:58 PM 868 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM 1346 Views
That's fairly simple, actually... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM 980 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM 957 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM* fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM 469 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM 1007 Views
You are making a couple of mistakes darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:28:41 PM 876 Views
You're missing an important point... fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 858 Views
Yes, what do you mean? You are actually proving our point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:10:50 PM 732 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM 800 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM 817 Views
That makes no sense whatsoever... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:06:53 PM 779 Views
Simply this... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:13:42 PM 797 Views
Very poor evidence Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM 923 Views
No it isn't... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:18:09 PM 871 Views
Re: No it isn't... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:32:17 PM 958 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM 874 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined... Shannow - 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM 930 Views
Here's the problem with that... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM 782 Views
Linked circles are more effective than individual channelers... Shannow - 11/06/2010 01:57:43 PM 882 Views
That much stronger? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:06:18 PM 941 Views
On this we agree. darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:34:45 PM 765 Views
I think you are misreading her. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM 724 Views
Bingo *NM* Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:51:29 PM 553 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM* Logain - 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM 507 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM 964 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM 810 Views
I don't agree Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM 795 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM 900 Views
Hmm... Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM 713 Views
Because of the question to which she responded... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM 753 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM 883 Views
Without contradicting the latter... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM 784 Views
Ah well Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM 749 Views
Which is even more evidence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:23:28 PM 852 Views
Dude Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:30:57 PM 975 Views
It isn't omission fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 10:54:47 PM 926 Views
omg not this again *NM* BlackAdder - 10/06/2010 07:52:26 PM 901 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM 1004 Views
Nope... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM 855 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 887 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55? Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM 758 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM 699 Views
Amys can't hold her properly Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM 727 Views
What about later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM 720 Views
No she didn't darius_sedai - 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM 853 Views
No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM 908 Views
Re: No she didn't what? darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM 741 Views
Re: No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 06:02:57 PM 902 Views
you are arguing in a circle darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:31:19 PM 1219 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM 873 Views
That's simple... fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 825 Views
Re: That's simple... Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM 773 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it. fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM 964 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body. Gher - 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM 806 Views
But they didn't look alike anyway. *NM* Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:59:35 PM 555 Views
Eh, yeah. Gher - 12/06/2010 08:24:10 PM 757 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new beetnemesis - 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 943 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM 1021 Views
They RAFO way too much. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:56 AM 744 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM 774 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM 1053 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second... Logain - 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM 781 Views
That still proves my point... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM 956 Views
Re: That still proves my point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM 808 Views
Then why... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM 901 Views
Re: Then why... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM 770 Views
God, what stupidity! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM 767 Views
Re: God, what stupidity! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM 874 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM 829 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100. Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM 1093 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM 918 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM 857 Views
You're pretty much agreeing with me, you know? fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:32:44 PM 823 Views
Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/06/2010 10:31:00 PM 943 Views
Re: Just to make things clear on the strength thing... Bored - 14/06/2010 11:21:31 PM 1154 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:48:43 PM 747 Views
Also interesting... Etzel - 10/06/2010 09:38:27 PM 893 Views
I'm even more confused (parallel worlds and the Pattern) entyti - 10/06/2010 09:48:17 PM 863 Views
Nah,... DomA - 11/06/2010 11:38:20 AM 864 Views
Fascinating! entyti - 13/06/2010 02:30:42 AM 880 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM 845 Views
I think she's saving that info for her WoT Encyclopedia. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:54:38 AM 895 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. TaskmasterJack - 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM 963 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. DomA - 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM 889 Views
I agree Etzel - 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM 1006 Views
Re: I agree TaskmasterJack - 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM 787 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out" Etzel - 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM 816 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM 482 Views
Actually she said "No"... *NM* Etzel - 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM 573 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question. TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM 818 Views
Yeah, sorry for the rolly-eyed smiley! Was a bit mean... Etzel - 13/06/2010 09:19:13 AM 839 Views
I agree with Jack and Sidious and not with you. Tom - 11/06/2010 03:20:30 PM 911 Views
Well, on the Thom question... Etzel - 11/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 812 Views
Yeah Sidious - 11/06/2010 08:26:33 AM 908 Views
Re: Yeah darius_sedai - 15/06/2010 12:25:21 AM 765 Views
Eh, practically useless. callandor1000 - 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM 791 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM 453 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though. callandor1000 - 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM 1358 Views
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