Forsaken roundup: an attempt to embiggen our knowledge of their current plans
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 12/06/2010 04:41:12 PM
I've got the parody bug out of my system. This means I'm never going to post the CSI:WoT segment I was considering ("given the blood spatter on that Tairen carpet...". This is no great loss.
So I'm posting some of my notes on the Forsaken. I hope that by laying out info about them - purely solid facts joined by a few suppositions - that we might collectively be able to fill in some gaps on what they've done and what they plan to do. I also highlight some outstanding issues and questions, like Taim's identity (it's 50/50 IMO that he might be a Forsaken).
The question of what the Chosen are up to still looms over the series as deeply as ever. In fact, I think it's only become murkier over the last 6-7 books. Early on, we knew which Forsaken had X plan to trap Rand in one place or another. We lost those luxuries, almost completely, after TFoH.
As it stands now, three of the Chosen seem to have no permanent location or power base - in the case of Moggy and Cyndane, these considerations seem irrelevant now. In fact, Moggy and Cyndane have greatly reduced (or more quiet) roles. Demandred is an utter mystery; he might be running the Borderland Army, leftover WC, the Black Tower, Murandy, or all and possibly more. Moridin's plans are so unknown that there cannot be more than pure speculation; it'll stay that way until we're finally given the answers. Arangar has plans, but no permanent power base, and we have almost no info on those plans. So yes, the Chosen are more mysterious now than they were before...
In the hopes of divining some things before the next book is published, my open Forsaken notes are below. Moridin receives no separate entry because it's all too speculative. Graendal information is included to add perspective on the other surviving Forsaken; also because her actions are nearly certain to have repercussions in the coming books. Information on earlier joint plans is included to help determine potential patterns of behavior. The 2 or 3 suppositions I make and questions I raise are open to debate, but I felt confident including them.
Help me flesh this all out, if you please...
_____
Arangar
-sent by SH to infiltrate and frustrate Salidar, keep the WT division going. Seems to have permanently lost this base of operations, and there's no hint of a new base or cover identity.
-Quite possibly sent Slayer after Rand. This is likely as she admits she's pretended to be another Forsaken, and Slayer raises gender issues when he wonders who gave him his new orders.
-KoD Ch3, has plans for Rand that will kill him...
-allied with Graendal, wants to use her spy network; Graendal won't like the use Arangar intends. This suggests the spies will (a) die, (b) be exposed, or (c) lead back to Graendal.
--only person besides Moridin who knows that Cyndane is Lanfear, insists despite her lower saidar strength.
--Ran the 2nd-best spy net in AoL's WoS. Presently no known spy ring.
--weak in TAR.
--did not send 100K Trollocs after Rand.
--possibly Taim? Returns to active duty 2 chapters before he does. Doesn't have the raw hate for Rand that'd make it impossible for Demandred to fill the role. No other male Forsaken currently known to be alive fits. Moridin's and Taim's orders for Rochaid on Rand & the seals eliminate Morry. Taim calls things "so-called," so seems like a lock for an AoL-er, despite the possibility that he picked up the phrase.
Graendal
-last seen in Arad Doman, disguised as a reclusive noblewoman. Caused confusion and chaos by Compulsing the King, giving many orders in his name. Gave complex orders to Ituralde, leading to his fight with the Seanchan. Presumptively very dead now.
-in LoC, is part of the DO's plan with Sammy and The Trio, but Sammael is the odd man out. The latter part is directly stated by her: Sammael knows just enough of the real plan to keep him out the way. This is presumably why Sammael gets the call-box, to keep him busy with the Shaido.
-says to herself in LOC ch6, "She will be obedient and sow chaos till Demandred chokes on it." This could mean she's trying to hurt Demmy, or it could just mean that she's going to make so much chaos that she'll be made naeblis instead of him.
-In TPoD, is called out to Moridin, is told she works for him now. But if there was a specific Moridin plan at that time, we don't see it. Was it just to consolidate Moridin's command, or did he want something right then and there?
-In the Ansaline Gardens meeting, she set up the room. Why did she create 11 chairs when she knows 3 FS are dead? Did she think that Sammael is simply hiding? This seems unlikely given that she raided his stuff. Or that Asmo lives? She must surely have known 2 Forsaken are certainly beyond resurrection. Did she do it to screw with everyone, or to cover her own Forsaken imitation?
-allied with Arangar. Received useful info on Rebel AS, shared spy contacts with 'gar.
-in TGS, is told by Moridin to frustrate Rand and hurt his mind/feelings. The only *new* action this seems to have caused was some Domani being killed and hidden to prolong Arad Doman's instability.
--Super-master of manipulation.
--has great DF contacts.
--is hooked on heavy Compulsion and sex like Moridin to the TP.
--plays games with the other FS, pushes their buttons whenever she can.
--at the meeting where the FS are prepped for The Cleansing, already knew about Rand's plan to cleanse saidin, and his use of the CK; Demandred thought her shock was faked. How'd she know?
Mesaana
-power base is White Tower, identity unknown. Runs BA, ran & divided WT through BA. May or may not still be in Tar Valon.
-participated in Belal's trap for Rand at the Stone of Tear. Presumably her part was sending the BA, who were strongly involved in baiting the Wonder Girls in order to bait the DR.
-plan to kidnap Rand. This plan existed *before* The Trio joins with Graendal and Sammael on the DO's orders.
-possibly revealed Arangar to the WT rebels? Logical, as it's a BA who revealed new weaves to detect saidin. And this revelation happens after she was furious with Arangar for Egwene's capture. She also felt the Rebels would surely collapse, so choosing to kill Arangar would consolidate her power and eliminate a rival.
--Who the heck is she already? How many plans does she have going right now? Did she move on Arangar?
Demandred
-pretty much everything is unknown. Dang.
-given the DO's plans in LoC. Nature of plans never revealed, but Dumai's Wells was quite probably orchestrated by him, at least partly. 3+ weeks after getting DO's orders, he's in TaR at the Caemlyn royal palace, but there's no discernible evidence to suggest why. Why does he say in this chapter "another thread in the pattern pulled?" (paraphrase) Did he BF someone, or relay an order?
-charged with watching Rand, along with Osangar. This is revealed in WH, though *how* he was to watch Rand is unclear.
--not Taim.
--Is the Shadow's best general (esp with Sammael gone); this is a good deduction since Ishamael never held a field command.
--no on-page appearance until maybe KoD.
--uses proxies.
--has "armies" and "rules," but which or what are unclear. As of TGS, his forces are gathering.
--insists on killing Rand personally. Does this mean he wouldn't get a Grey Man or Slayer to do it?
--does he direct the Seanchan army through Semi?
--does not recognize long-standing Ashaman like Flinn.
--does not recognize Elayne when he sees her, had to guess.
--Is he behind all the national destabilizations? Specifically, Tarabon, Altara, Amadicia, Ghealdan. Is he behind Borderland Armies being completely out of position?
Moghedien
-current location unknown. Whether she even has a base of operations is unknown. Barely does anything not under Morry's orders, as of ACos.
-upon release, pours through history records. Learns of dominion bands.
-before Moridin's stewardship, commandeered BA group in Tanchico. Takes over and destabilizes Tanchican govt, gains access to museum with a Bore seal & dominion bands.
-After stunning defeat #1, Uses at least part of that BA group for small tasks, hunting Wonder Girls, etc. Stays on hunt for Wonder Girls until she comes to
-under Moridin's orders, goes to Altara to search for terangreal cache.
-under Moridin's orders, helps organize the DF.
--TaR super-master.
--likes to hide, runs when she might lose.
--Ran the best spy network in AoL's WoS.
--Recognized Birgitte as a Hero of the Horn in the AoL. Does her strength in TaR make her able recognize these? Or did she read about legendary female archers and make the connection?
--Is her ability to rip Birgitte out of TaR a matter of TaR-control, or channeling?
Cyndane
-current location unknown. Whether she even has a base of operations is unknown. Barely does anything not under Morry's orders, as of ACos. Presently ordered to stay away from Rand, on threat of eternal mindlessness.
-upon release, hung out in TaR a lot. Once Rand's location became known and steady for a spell (Shienar), gravitated toward DR. Kept returning to see him at all his locations. Tried to turn Rand, always viewed him as LTT.
-went back and forth between spending time with Rand and making alliances, often with groups of Forsaken, directed at controlling Rand.
-as Lanfear, seems to have been part of Belal's Stone of Tear trap; she set the Wonder Girls on their path to Tear.
-as Lanfear, planned with Asmo to teach & control Rand; this was prior to her TFoH plan below.
-TFoH plan with Rahvin & Sam & Graendal to trap and control Rand; Sammael was meant to be the bait.
-put in Morry's service after attempt to murder Rand, defeat by Moiraine, and time spent in 'Finnland.
-under Moridin's control, rallies/preps the DF.
-quite likely sent the 100K Trollocs after Rand. Most other FS complain that tracking the pattern to him is incredibly hard. Rand's location in Tear was hidden, but definitely known by one BA. Lanfear and Ishy seemed to be the only ones good at tracking via the pattern, so unless Moridin did it (which makes *no* sense) Cyndane is a solid candidate.
--only Forsaken besides Ishy who can reliably track Rand via the Pattern.
--probably 2nd-most powerful person, light or dark, in TaR.
--little information is given on her post-Cyndane activities or whereabouts. She Traveled to The Cleansing from Caemlyn, and was talking to someone when she did so. No indication that her location or actions at that time were relevant.
--claims she would have known who LTT was reborn as, by sight. Is this some special ability of hers? There's little reason to think she was lying about that.
Trio & Graendal (& formerly Sammael) Plan
-Extent of this is unknown, but Dumai's Wells seems to have been at least part of it.
-Shaido contacted and manipulated.
-Mesaana's White Tower Kidnap Plan may have been subsumed into this. BA from the WT meet with Shaido, so the links seem clear.
-Events South of Arad Doman (or of whole Randland?) point to Demandred. This claim is made shortly after Demmy shares the orders, so what could he already have done? Or was this a reference to the Seanchan, who may have been controlled by Semi, but directed (militarily) by Demandred?
-All on the DO's orders.
-Ashaman were likely part of it, but this is uncertain.
--Arad Doman seemed to play no part in Dumai's Wells, so Graendal's involvement seems curious. She seems to have orchestrated the Shaido and Sammael parts of it, but her involvement may have been with other parts of the plan...
So I'm posting some of my notes on the Forsaken. I hope that by laying out info about them - purely solid facts joined by a few suppositions - that we might collectively be able to fill in some gaps on what they've done and what they plan to do. I also highlight some outstanding issues and questions, like Taim's identity (it's 50/50 IMO that he might be a Forsaken).
The question of what the Chosen are up to still looms over the series as deeply as ever. In fact, I think it's only become murkier over the last 6-7 books. Early on, we knew which Forsaken had X plan to trap Rand in one place or another. We lost those luxuries, almost completely, after TFoH.
As it stands now, three of the Chosen seem to have no permanent location or power base - in the case of Moggy and Cyndane, these considerations seem irrelevant now. In fact, Moggy and Cyndane have greatly reduced (or more quiet) roles. Demandred is an utter mystery; he might be running the Borderland Army, leftover WC, the Black Tower, Murandy, or all and possibly more. Moridin's plans are so unknown that there cannot be more than pure speculation; it'll stay that way until we're finally given the answers. Arangar has plans, but no permanent power base, and we have almost no info on those plans. So yes, the Chosen are more mysterious now than they were before...
In the hopes of divining some things before the next book is published, my open Forsaken notes are below. Moridin receives no separate entry because it's all too speculative. Graendal information is included to add perspective on the other surviving Forsaken; also because her actions are nearly certain to have repercussions in the coming books. Information on earlier joint plans is included to help determine potential patterns of behavior. The 2 or 3 suppositions I make and questions I raise are open to debate, but I felt confident including them.
Help me flesh this all out, if you please...
_____
Arangar
-sent by SH to infiltrate and frustrate Salidar, keep the WT division going. Seems to have permanently lost this base of operations, and there's no hint of a new base or cover identity.
-Quite possibly sent Slayer after Rand. This is likely as she admits she's pretended to be another Forsaken, and Slayer raises gender issues when he wonders who gave him his new orders.
-KoD Ch3, has plans for Rand that will kill him...
-allied with Graendal, wants to use her spy network; Graendal won't like the use Arangar intends. This suggests the spies will (a) die, (b) be exposed, or (c) lead back to Graendal.
--only person besides Moridin who knows that Cyndane is Lanfear, insists despite her lower saidar strength.
--Ran the 2nd-best spy net in AoL's WoS. Presently no known spy ring.
--weak in TAR.
--did not send 100K Trollocs after Rand.
--possibly Taim? Returns to active duty 2 chapters before he does. Doesn't have the raw hate for Rand that'd make it impossible for Demandred to fill the role. No other male Forsaken currently known to be alive fits. Moridin's and Taim's orders for Rochaid on Rand & the seals eliminate Morry. Taim calls things "so-called," so seems like a lock for an AoL-er, despite the possibility that he picked up the phrase.
Graendal
-last seen in Arad Doman, disguised as a reclusive noblewoman. Caused confusion and chaos by Compulsing the King, giving many orders in his name. Gave complex orders to Ituralde, leading to his fight with the Seanchan. Presumptively very dead now.
-in LoC, is part of the DO's plan with Sammy and The Trio, but Sammael is the odd man out. The latter part is directly stated by her: Sammael knows just enough of the real plan to keep him out the way. This is presumably why Sammael gets the call-box, to keep him busy with the Shaido.
-says to herself in LOC ch6, "She will be obedient and sow chaos till Demandred chokes on it." This could mean she's trying to hurt Demmy, or it could just mean that she's going to make so much chaos that she'll be made naeblis instead of him.
-In TPoD, is called out to Moridin, is told she works for him now. But if there was a specific Moridin plan at that time, we don't see it. Was it just to consolidate Moridin's command, or did he want something right then and there?
-In the Ansaline Gardens meeting, she set up the room. Why did she create 11 chairs when she knows 3 FS are dead? Did she think that Sammael is simply hiding? This seems unlikely given that she raided his stuff. Or that Asmo lives? She must surely have known 2 Forsaken are certainly beyond resurrection. Did she do it to screw with everyone, or to cover her own Forsaken imitation?
-allied with Arangar. Received useful info on Rebel AS, shared spy contacts with 'gar.
-in TGS, is told by Moridin to frustrate Rand and hurt his mind/feelings. The only *new* action this seems to have caused was some Domani being killed and hidden to prolong Arad Doman's instability.
--Super-master of manipulation.
--has great DF contacts.
--is hooked on heavy Compulsion and sex like Moridin to the TP.
--plays games with the other FS, pushes their buttons whenever she can.
--at the meeting where the FS are prepped for The Cleansing, already knew about Rand's plan to cleanse saidin, and his use of the CK; Demandred thought her shock was faked. How'd she know?
Mesaana
-power base is White Tower, identity unknown. Runs BA, ran & divided WT through BA. May or may not still be in Tar Valon.
-participated in Belal's trap for Rand at the Stone of Tear. Presumably her part was sending the BA, who were strongly involved in baiting the Wonder Girls in order to bait the DR.
-plan to kidnap Rand. This plan existed *before* The Trio joins with Graendal and Sammael on the DO's orders.
-possibly revealed Arangar to the WT rebels? Logical, as it's a BA who revealed new weaves to detect saidin. And this revelation happens after she was furious with Arangar for Egwene's capture. She also felt the Rebels would surely collapse, so choosing to kill Arangar would consolidate her power and eliminate a rival.
--Who the heck is she already? How many plans does she have going right now? Did she move on Arangar?
Demandred
-pretty much everything is unknown. Dang.
-given the DO's plans in LoC. Nature of plans never revealed, but Dumai's Wells was quite probably orchestrated by him, at least partly. 3+ weeks after getting DO's orders, he's in TaR at the Caemlyn royal palace, but there's no discernible evidence to suggest why. Why does he say in this chapter "another thread in the pattern pulled?" (paraphrase) Did he BF someone, or relay an order?
-charged with watching Rand, along with Osangar. This is revealed in WH, though *how* he was to watch Rand is unclear.
--not Taim.
--Is the Shadow's best general (esp with Sammael gone); this is a good deduction since Ishamael never held a field command.
--no on-page appearance until maybe KoD.
--uses proxies.
--has "armies" and "rules," but which or what are unclear. As of TGS, his forces are gathering.
--insists on killing Rand personally. Does this mean he wouldn't get a Grey Man or Slayer to do it?
--does he direct the Seanchan army through Semi?
--does not recognize long-standing Ashaman like Flinn.
--does not recognize Elayne when he sees her, had to guess.
--Is he behind all the national destabilizations? Specifically, Tarabon, Altara, Amadicia, Ghealdan. Is he behind Borderland Armies being completely out of position?
Moghedien
-current location unknown. Whether she even has a base of operations is unknown. Barely does anything not under Morry's orders, as of ACos.
-upon release, pours through history records. Learns of dominion bands.
-before Moridin's stewardship, commandeered BA group in Tanchico. Takes over and destabilizes Tanchican govt, gains access to museum with a Bore seal & dominion bands.
-After stunning defeat #1, Uses at least part of that BA group for small tasks, hunting Wonder Girls, etc. Stays on hunt for Wonder Girls until she comes to
-under Moridin's orders, goes to Altara to search for terangreal cache.
-under Moridin's orders, helps organize the DF.
--TaR super-master.
--likes to hide, runs when she might lose.
--Ran the best spy network in AoL's WoS.
--Recognized Birgitte as a Hero of the Horn in the AoL. Does her strength in TaR make her able recognize these? Or did she read about legendary female archers and make the connection?
--Is her ability to rip Birgitte out of TaR a matter of TaR-control, or channeling?
Cyndane
-current location unknown. Whether she even has a base of operations is unknown. Barely does anything not under Morry's orders, as of ACos. Presently ordered to stay away from Rand, on threat of eternal mindlessness.
-upon release, hung out in TaR a lot. Once Rand's location became known and steady for a spell (Shienar), gravitated toward DR. Kept returning to see him at all his locations. Tried to turn Rand, always viewed him as LTT.
-went back and forth between spending time with Rand and making alliances, often with groups of Forsaken, directed at controlling Rand.
-as Lanfear, seems to have been part of Belal's Stone of Tear trap; she set the Wonder Girls on their path to Tear.
-as Lanfear, planned with Asmo to teach & control Rand; this was prior to her TFoH plan below.
-TFoH plan with Rahvin & Sam & Graendal to trap and control Rand; Sammael was meant to be the bait.
-put in Morry's service after attempt to murder Rand, defeat by Moiraine, and time spent in 'Finnland.
-under Moridin's control, rallies/preps the DF.
-quite likely sent the 100K Trollocs after Rand. Most other FS complain that tracking the pattern to him is incredibly hard. Rand's location in Tear was hidden, but definitely known by one BA. Lanfear and Ishy seemed to be the only ones good at tracking via the pattern, so unless Moridin did it (which makes *no* sense) Cyndane is a solid candidate.
--only Forsaken besides Ishy who can reliably track Rand via the Pattern.
--probably 2nd-most powerful person, light or dark, in TaR.
--little information is given on her post-Cyndane activities or whereabouts. She Traveled to The Cleansing from Caemlyn, and was talking to someone when she did so. No indication that her location or actions at that time were relevant.
--claims she would have known who LTT was reborn as, by sight. Is this some special ability of hers? There's little reason to think she was lying about that.
Trio & Graendal (& formerly Sammael) Plan
-Extent of this is unknown, but Dumai's Wells seems to have been at least part of it.
-Shaido contacted and manipulated.
-Mesaana's White Tower Kidnap Plan may have been subsumed into this. BA from the WT meet with Shaido, so the links seem clear.
-Events South of Arad Doman (or of whole Randland?) point to Demandred. This claim is made shortly after Demmy shares the orders, so what could he already have done? Or was this a reference to the Seanchan, who may have been controlled by Semi, but directed (militarily) by Demandred?
-All on the DO's orders.
-Ashaman were likely part of it, but this is uncertain.
--Arad Doman seemed to play no part in Dumai's Wells, so Graendal's involvement seems curious. She seems to have orchestrated the Shaido and Sammael parts of it, but her involvement may have been with other parts of the plan...
This message last edited by newyorkersedai on 12/06/2010 at 09:32:52 PM
Forsaken roundup: an attempt to embiggen our knowledge of their current plans
12/06/2010 04:41:12 PM
- 972 Views
Re: Forsaken roundup
12/06/2010 06:50:00 PM
- 507 Views
"Looks like the High Lords of Tear," takes off shades "got torn apart."
13/06/2010 04:07:07 PM
- 384 Views
I wonder if Lanfear can see Ta'veren.... would explain how she'd be able to figure out Rand is LTT *NM*
12/06/2010 11:14:21 PM
- 193 Views
My take
13/06/2010 06:52:47 AM
- 623 Views