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IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious Send a noteboard - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM
Dammit Sidious... this is getting irritating as hell. Silviana clearly states that in the night when Egwene will surely gain her full strength, Barasine alone is enough to shield her, but she wants one more person to prevent trickery from Egwene.

Thus, Barasine alone can shield Egwene, meaning Egwene cannot be more than twice as strong as her.


We know for a FACT that Amys cannot hold Egwene for more than a few moments in FoH. If Barasine is weaker than Amys, how on earth can Barasine hold Egwene if Egwene is NOT under the influence of forkroot?

Either RJ was wrong, or BS is wrong. So, who do YOU think is wrong?


Barasine could shield Egwene in KoD, so it was RJ all the way.

Now, Amys said she was exhausted by the effort, but she still did hold the shield. So it isn't true at all that Amys cannot shield Egwene.

By my list, both are stronger than half Egwene's strength, and thus both can indeed shield her. Which is verified by the text.


Amys is at that point where she can hold Egwene with great effort, but if Egwene tried, she might be able to break the shield. Egwene did try and couldn't break it, but Amys said she needed to release saidar because Egwene was too strong.

Either way, this debate has gone off on a tangent. Neither Melaine or Amys are weak women, and Egwene is stronger than both combined. Egwene isn't even top strength - all the Forsaken and some good guys exceed her in power. Logically, the average woman cannot cluster around 50% of maximum strength. If so, then Moiraine was really retarded to think that it would take Aviendha and Egwene to 'perhaps' match one of the Forsaken.

Also it takes at least five women to hold a high powered male. Siuan said that Logain would have escaped if it had been less than six women, which is acceptable proof to me that women peak at 10-20. If they're around 50, then Logain is one hell of a guy.


Egwene is roughly as strong as Amys and Melaine combined. Aviendha's quote in FoH cannot be reasonably interpreted in any other way.

If the Bell Curve is a linear reflection of absolute strength, then Lanfear must be twice as strong as the average woman.

That means someone half as strong as Lanfear must be the average woman, and what's more, MOST women must be clustered around that strength range.

Someone barely more than half the strength of Egwene therefore MUST be weaker than the average woman.

That means that Moiraine is weaker than the average woman.

And THAT means that a HUGE number of channelers must be out there, and ON AVERAGE they must be stronger than Moiraine. Probably around Cadsuane's strength.

And since that seems extremely unlikely, the only logical conclusion is that the Bell Curve cannot be a linear representation of absolute strength.


Elayne says that women as strong as Sheriam are uncommon. Therefore most women are weaker than Sheriam. Sheriam is therefore above 50/100 e.g. 60. Amys is in this range, and Aviendha says that Egwene is stronger than Amys + Melaine = > 110 (60 + 50).

I'm wondering where to put everyone else?

Sure, I agree that the average woman is 50. If you're prepared to take Lanfear up to 200.
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 10/06/2010 at 09:22:46 PM
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Several good MAFOs from Dragonmount Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:07:55 PM 2399 Views
Some good RAFOs here Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:31:56 PM 1128 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 10/06/2010 07:36:55 PM 1041 Views
Maria's answer to question 20 is ground-breaking! Logain - 10/06/2010 07:36:40 PM 1333 Views
No, it merely means that the Bell Curve does not refer to absolute strength... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:42:31 PM 1170 Views
See the question again man! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:48:57 PM 1141 Views
That contradicts your assertion that Moiraine is stronger than the average woman... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:50:11 PM 1224 Views
How? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:41 PM 1160 Views
I need to re-evaluate nothing! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:46:20 PM 1156 Views
Think logically for a moment... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:49:10 PM 991 Views
Who said Egwene is twice as strong as Moiraine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:52:27 PM 1281 Views
Aviendha did in FoH... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:54:32 PM 983 Views
Nope! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:55:55 PM 1164 Views
Your quotes are faulty Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:57:18 PM 1144 Views
In what sense though? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:59:00 PM 1144 Views
Forkroot Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:04:50 PM 1105 Views
Again... later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:05:39 PM 972 Views
What do you mean? Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:07:24 PM 1132 Views
See below... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:11:24 PM 1020 Views
Re: See below... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:12:34 PM 1081 Views
I just did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:09 PM 931 Views
Well then we disagree Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:18:10 PM 1134 Views
BUT WHAT ABOUT LATER IN THE NIGHT! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:20:21 PM 951 Views
Ah, you mean later later ... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:29:59 PM 1056 Views
Forkroot wears off, you know? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:45:33 PM 1154 Views
Yes I know Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:05:29 PM 1165 Views
I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:17:10 PM 1128 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:37:39 PM 1124 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:51:40 PM 1062 Views
Re: I've explained it before in this thread... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:05:37 PM 1116 Views
Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:18:44 PM 1166 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:29:04 PM 1257 Views
Re: Are you sure you're feeling fine? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:47:00 PM 1047 Views
RJ writes that Amys cannot hold Egwene. BS writes that Barasene can. Who are you gonna believe? Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:31:35 PM 976 Views
It wasn't BS... both were RJ! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:41:54 PM 1064 Views
In that case, there is no problem... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:45:05 PM 1198 Views
But that isn't what the text says... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:57:42 PM 926 Views
How can Egwene be strong enough to overcome Katerine and Silviana together then? Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:07:36 PM 1171 Views
She also says Egwene is Aes Sedai in the same sentence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:25:16 PM 1188 Views
Yeah, both were RJ Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:49:13 PM 1039 Views
Yeah yeah... RJ lied, Maria lied. Only you make sense. I'm finished with this debate. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:59:06 PM 1129 Views
Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:07:52 PM 1137 Views
Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:29:22 PM 990 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:39:21 PM 1122 Views
Re: Really? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:43:41 PM 993 Views
Re: Really? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:50:23 PM 1136 Views
I haven't refuted? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:53:17 PM 1172 Views
Here's what is clear: Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:02:41 PM 1030 Views
IMO it's easy to disprove Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:22:23 PM 1012 Views
Dude... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:34 PM 926 Views
At least we agree on one thing Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:29:14 PM 1042 Views
No... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:32:06 PM 1010 Views
Re: No... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:43:59 PM 1125 Views
fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:57:25 PM 971 Views
Re: Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:12:29 PM 1056 Views
Re: fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:34:28 PM 1081 Views
Thought on this darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:09:29 PM 975 Views
yet 4 women can still hold Rand in LoC ... he can't break the Shield until it's down to 3 darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 12:47:43 PM 862 Views
Have to agree with Sidious on this point darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 02:49:58 AM 969 Views
That was kind of my point... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:19:23 PM 698 Views
of course Katerine would have complained darius_sedai - 12/06/2010 12:53:31 PM 1096 Views
The rate forkroot wears off? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:36:38 PM 1084 Views
You missed that she isn't being given Forkroot at night at all! fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:47:59 PM 981 Views
Typos, screwed up what I meant Rurouni_Kenshin - 17/06/2010 02:31:50 AM 989 Views
You are... fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 04:32:47 AM 1207 Views
Maria's other answer adresses this... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:14:54 PM 883 Views
Then one Aes Sedai cannot shield her. But one did. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:16:41 PM 1002 Views
You can be much weaker than someone, and hold them shielded, if they are already cut off... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:19:15 PM 983 Views
But, if you are much stronger, you can break that shield... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:22:25 PM 978 Views
Easy... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:24:59 PM 946 Views
What has that got to do with it? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:32:56 PM 1133 Views
Amys is not LESS than half of Egwene's strength. You cannot hold someone if you are LESS than half.. Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:47:41 PM 1053 Views
Amys is as strong as Moiraine, at the most one level lower. Barasine is weaker than Katarine, who... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:00:26 PM 1171 Views
I can agree with that. Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:09:07 PM 940 Views
How can you agree with it? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:13:55 PM 1137 Views
I'm thinking Berowin here... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:16:41 PM 1145 Views
Exactly. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:18:19 PM 1011 Views
... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:12:21 PM 936 Views
Agreed, but... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:13:59 PM 1090 Views
Re: Agreed, but... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:16:30 PM 888 Views
Good point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:18:53 PM 1108 Views
Or, you know, you're wrong? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:27:55 PM 988 Views
Re: Good point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:28:02 PM 1170 Views
We've had this discussion before darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 01:59:34 PM 1089 Views
Or, you know, you can have the grace to question your antiquated strength list... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:22:51 PM 958 Views
The Bell Curve fits perfectly if one simple fact is true... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:31:31 PM 926 Views
Or, you know, you can stop misinterpreting Aviendha... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:40:05 PM 1050 Views
I'd be perfectly happy to adjust my list if it made sense Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:32:35 PM 907 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:41:59 PM 912 Views
Re: Uhhh? Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:48:58 PM 922 Views
DUDE! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:58:59 PM 936 Views
Re: DUDE! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:09:11 PM 914 Views
I explained... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:27:44 PM 920 Views
Re: I explained... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:45:58 PM 1084 Views
Rand seems to shield Egwene and Elayne TOGETHER, pretty easily... Shannow - 10/06/2010 09:54:03 PM 1587 Views
That's fairly simple, actually... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:08:53 PM 1156 Views
Nope. Rand was also cut off from the Source when he broke a shield held by 3 Aes Sedai... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:18:41 PM 1129 Views
Because that channeler is much stronger? I'm not getting your confusion here. *NM* fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:27:31 PM 537 Views
Your Aes Sedai are close to the average woman in strength, right... Shannow - 10/06/2010 11:42:01 PM 1198 Views
You are making a couple of mistakes darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:28:41 PM 1050 Views
You're missing an important point... fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:10:55 PM 1023 Views
Yes, what do you mean? You are actually proving our point... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:10:50 PM 887 Views
No, here's the quote: I hate having to pull out my books with their yellowed pages... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:01:54 PM 955 Views
Why would she need surprise against two? That was against five of them... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:04:57 PM 969 Views
That makes no sense whatsoever... Shannow - 10/06/2010 08:06:53 PM 946 Views
Simply this... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:13:42 PM 966 Views
Very poor evidence Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:11:26 PM 1097 Views
No it isn't... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:18:09 PM 1049 Views
Re: No it isn't... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:32:17 PM 1117 Views
no she said Egwene is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined darius_sedai - 11/06/2010 12:46:29 AM 1034 Views
The actual quote says Amys and Melaine combined... Shannow - 11/06/2010 12:25:07 PM 1081 Views
Here's the problem with that... fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:42:41 PM 941 Views
Linked circles are more effective than individual channelers... Shannow - 11/06/2010 01:57:43 PM 1046 Views
That much stronger? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:06:18 PM 1114 Views
On this we agree. darius_sedai - 13/06/2010 02:34:45 PM 917 Views
I think you are misreading her. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 07:47:06 PM 920 Views
Bingo *NM* Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:51:29 PM 629 Views
Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. *NM* Logain - 10/06/2010 09:23:36 PM 574 Views
Re: Please explain what you mean by "channeler" and "power" distribution. Skeeve the Great - 10/06/2010 10:11:23 PM 1133 Views
Yes. You can't extrapolate a generalized macro level scale to micro level individuals. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:16:24 AM 989 Views
I don't agree Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:49:41 PM 972 Views
BAH! Its infuriating how you have so many blinders... Eerily Aes Sedai of you. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:54:23 PM 1166 Views
Hmm... Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:55:59 PM 891 Views
Because of the question to which she responded... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:57:55 PM 906 Views
Re: Because of the question to which she responded... Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:06:16 PM 1059 Views
Without contradicting the latter... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:15:11 PM 954 Views
Ah well Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:20:32 PM 941 Views
Which is even more evidence... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:23:28 PM 1044 Views
Dude Sidious - 10/06/2010 08:30:57 PM 1129 Views
It isn't omission fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 10:54:47 PM 1086 Views
omg not this again *NM* BlackAdder - 10/06/2010 07:52:26 PM 1062 Views
Great! Two of my OP strength ideas have been solidified! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:39:53 PM 1169 Views
Nope... Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:46:31 PM 1025 Views
Who said Cadsuane was 50? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1053 Views
So how can Egwene be twice as strong as Moiraine, if Moiraine is at 55? Shannow - 10/06/2010 07:53:11 PM 917 Views
She cannot be because she isn't. Silviana can shield Egwene alone, for God's sake. So can Amys! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 07:56:26 PM 867 Views
Amys can't hold her properly Sidious - 10/06/2010 07:59:47 PM 899 Views
What about later that night? fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 08:02:16 PM 921 Views
No she didn't darius_sedai - 16/06/2010 03:02:21 PM 1037 Views
No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:46:05 PM 1086 Views
Re: No she didn't what? darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:16:16 AM 935 Views
Re: No she didn't what? fionwe1987 - 17/06/2010 06:02:57 PM 1057 Views
you are arguing in a circle darius_sedai - 17/06/2010 06:31:19 PM 1404 Views
Why do you think it's a linear scale? Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 05:25:56 AM 1031 Views
That's simple... fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 06:36:44 AM 1010 Views
Re: That's simple... Rurouni_Kenshin - 16/06/2010 12:27:07 PM 958 Views
Your concept is not mathematically right. So yeah, forget discussing it. fionwe1987 - 16/06/2010 04:41:13 PM 1142 Views
Dang, Cyndane isn't using Cabriana's body. Gher - 10/06/2010 08:25:20 PM 988 Views
But they didn't look alike anyway. *NM* Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:59:35 PM 622 Views
Eh, yeah. Gher - 12/06/2010 08:24:10 PM 933 Views
The blue flash RAFO irritates me- I can't see how that will be relevant. The Min thing was new beetnemesis - 10/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1101 Views
RJ already RAFOed the incident with Thom's knives/daggers before Etzel - 10/06/2010 08:57:52 PM 1183 Views
They RAFO way too much. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:56 AM 908 Views
It isn't, unless she's implying the Creator helped him out or some other such thing RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:56:49 AM 935 Views
Just to make things clear on the strength thing... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:08:02 PM 1213 Views
It is possible Maria was answering the first question and ignoring the second... Logain - 10/06/2010 09:29:59 PM 950 Views
That still proves my point... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 09:33:10 PM 1118 Views
Re: That still proves my point... Sidious - 10/06/2010 09:45:39 PM 985 Views
Then why... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:00:00 PM 1076 Views
Re: Then why... Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:07:56 PM 955 Views
God, what stupidity! fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:10:32 PM 927 Views
Re: God, what stupidity! Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:16:38 PM 1036 Views
It doesn't have to be 1-100. fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 10:32:17 PM 975 Views
Re: It doesn't have to be 1-100. Sidious - 10/06/2010 10:41:02 PM 1265 Views
That's a mathematical impossibility... fionwe1987 - 10/06/2010 11:26:23 PM 1113 Views
Just popping in. I think you're arguing over non-existent delineations. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:44:40 AM 1032 Views
You're pretty much agreeing with me, you know? fionwe1987 - 11/06/2010 12:32:44 PM 1016 Views
Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/06/2010 10:31:00 PM 1119 Views
Re: Just to make things clear on the strength thing... Bored - 14/06/2010 11:21:31 PM 1319 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 14/06/2010 11:48:43 PM 914 Views
Also interesting... Etzel - 10/06/2010 09:38:27 PM 1062 Views
I'm even more confused (parallel worlds and the Pattern) entyti - 10/06/2010 09:48:17 PM 1038 Views
Nah,... DomA - 11/06/2010 11:38:20 AM 1012 Views
Fascinating! entyti - 13/06/2010 02:30:42 AM 1117 Views
You know, these things always end up pissing me off. Tom - 11/06/2010 12:25:05 AM 1005 Views
I think she's saving that info for her WoT Encyclopedia. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 11/06/2010 12:54:38 AM 1076 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. TaskmasterJack - 11/06/2010 03:22:53 AM 1116 Views
Re: You know, these things always end up pissing me off. DomA - 11/06/2010 12:29:37 PM 1080 Views
I agree Etzel - 11/06/2010 01:14:36 PM 1172 Views
Re: I agree TaskmasterJack - 12/06/2010 03:02:32 PM 961 Views
BS didn't answer with "Read and find out" Etzel - 12/06/2010 03:28:05 PM 992 Views
We were speaking about Maria giving a RAFO on the topic, not Sanderson. *NM* TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 12:05:17 AM 556 Views
Actually she said "No"... *NM* Etzel - 13/06/2010 01:06:18 AM 650 Views
I'll rephrase then. It was about Maria saying that she considered giving a RAFO on the question. TaskmasterJack - 13/06/2010 01:44:19 AM 986 Views
Yeah, sorry for the rolly-eyed smiley! Was a bit mean... Etzel - 13/06/2010 09:19:13 AM 1013 Views
I agree with Jack and Sidious and not with you. Tom - 11/06/2010 03:20:30 PM 1097 Views
Well, on the Thom question... Etzel - 11/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 964 Views
Yeah Sidious - 11/06/2010 08:26:33 AM 1073 Views
Re: Yeah darius_sedai - 15/06/2010 12:25:21 AM 926 Views
Eh, practically useless. callandor1000 - 14/06/2010 11:50:06 PM 941 Views
I agree. I think she is saving the good stuff for the encyclopedia. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 15/06/2010 04:17:07 PM 521 Views
Yeah. I do think she's taking advantage of these poor saps, though. callandor1000 - 17/06/2010 03:52:33 PM 1512 Views
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