It's all good, I do respect your thoughts on this BTW
darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/06/2010 11:28:45 PM
you put too much variance at the top and not enough in the middle for it to work. If Egwene was truly as low as you put her (and friends) there would be a ton more women between her and Moghedien. The fact that we have only see what 5 women in the series who fall between Egwene and Nynaeve is all I need to confirm that Nyna is closer to 95, Moghedien 85-90 and Egwene 75-80.
If you look at it from AS strength... there are clear levels.
Daigain = 1 unit of AS Strength (15)
Namelle Sisters = 1.5 unit of AS Strength (22 )
Verin = 2 units of AS Strength (30) ... slightly above average Sisters need margin above and below.
Sheriam = 2.5 unit of AS Strength (38 )
Moiraine = 3 units of AS Strength (45) ... Siuan's new strength is the key here
Kerene = 3.5 unit of AS Strength (53 )
Cadusane = 4 units of AS Strength (60) ... significantly stronger than Moiraine, but not at Egwene level
Bode = 4.5 unit of AS Strength (68 )
Egwene = 5 units of AS Strength (75) ... Amys + Melaine makes this her minimum since Melaine the weaker of the two, notes that she is stronger than most AS, 75 is the minimum here
Moghedien = 5.5 unit of AS Strength ( 83 )
Nyneave = 6 Units of AS Strength (90) Minimum level for Nynaeve IMO, she could easily be more like a 95
Alivia = 6.5 unit of AS Strength (98 )
Lanfear = 6.7 units of AS Strength (100) There is no way any of the FS could be more than this and have 3 women hold a shield on them reliably for a long period of time.
Obviously these are approximations, but it's pretty easy to map out since we know that Siuan is between 1/2 and 1/3 of her old strength, but not the weakest AS. We know Egwene is close to 2x Siuan, and that even the strongest female channelers cannot break through a shield held by 4 women of Daigian level (as evidenced by Semirhage). Even Rand was held by 4 women, who combined MAY have approached 10 Daigians, and we know that men have "several levels above women". Logain was held by 6 women in the same book and he's close to the max male strength... I'd write that off to knowing the weakest sisters wind up with the responsibility as Cadsuane implies later in the series ... so maybe about the same as the 4 women that held Rand?
Shannow relies too much on edited and interpreted quotes for me to even bother with him any more. So whatever... his posts just make me believe even more strongly in my point of view.
Things like his claim that OP Strength in women is a exact ... WRONG:
LOC
To Heal Again
"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that. Unless Nynaeve returns us to our full strength, we run the risk of standing fairly low."
Drives me nuts when people edit quotes, ignore context and then draw conclusions/interpretations which they present as fact.
If you look at it from AS strength... there are clear levels.
Daigain = 1 unit of AS Strength (15)
Namelle Sisters = 1.5 unit of AS Strength (22 )
Verin = 2 units of AS Strength (30) ... slightly above average Sisters need margin above and below.
Sheriam = 2.5 unit of AS Strength (38 )
Moiraine = 3 units of AS Strength (45) ... Siuan's new strength is the key here
Kerene = 3.5 unit of AS Strength (53 )
Cadusane = 4 units of AS Strength (60) ... significantly stronger than Moiraine, but not at Egwene level
Bode = 4.5 unit of AS Strength (68 )
Egwene = 5 units of AS Strength (75) ... Amys + Melaine makes this her minimum since Melaine the weaker of the two, notes that she is stronger than most AS, 75 is the minimum here
Moghedien = 5.5 unit of AS Strength ( 83 )
Nyneave = 6 Units of AS Strength (90) Minimum level for Nynaeve IMO, she could easily be more like a 95
Alivia = 6.5 unit of AS Strength (98 )
Lanfear = 6.7 units of AS Strength (100) There is no way any of the FS could be more than this and have 3 women hold a shield on them reliably for a long period of time.
Obviously these are approximations, but it's pretty easy to map out since we know that Siuan is between 1/2 and 1/3 of her old strength, but not the weakest AS. We know Egwene is close to 2x Siuan, and that even the strongest female channelers cannot break through a shield held by 4 women of Daigian level (as evidenced by Semirhage). Even Rand was held by 4 women, who combined MAY have approached 10 Daigians, and we know that men have "several levels above women". Logain was held by 6 women in the same book and he's close to the max male strength... I'd write that off to knowing the weakest sisters wind up with the responsibility as Cadsuane implies later in the series ... so maybe about the same as the 4 women that held Rand?
Shannow relies too much on edited and interpreted quotes for me to even bother with him any more. So whatever... his posts just make me believe even more strongly in my point of view.
Things like his claim that OP Strength in women is a exact ... WRONG:
LOC
To Heal Again
"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that. Unless Nynaeve returns us to our full strength, we run the risk of standing fairly low."
Drives me nuts when people edit quotes, ignore context and then draw conclusions/interpretations which they present as fact.
Well at least we know now what we each believe


A lot of my numbers come from shielding. My assumption is that to match a channeler you need to be at least as strong as them, which has been reasonably demonstrated throughout the series. If thirteen women can match most men, and thirteen AS can smother any man, then your table has problems - unless you have an excuse like saidin vs saidar, or the strength loss in linking.
13 weak women = 13 x 5 = 65 (strong men can hold this off)
13 weak AS = 13 x 10 = 130 (no man can hold this off)
Rand can face any three women unless one is Forsaken = 3x20 = 60 (vs 20 + 20 + 90 = 130)
Six women can hold any man = 6x20 = 120
Strong men can break through five women = 5x20 = 100
AS have strength from 10-25, so this remains tough. Realistically they would take their individual powers into account, but in the books I'm sure this is not the case while holding a male.
I like my table better, but I don't find yours ridiculous or unlikely either. It wouldn't be a surprise if either of our tables was correct. That said, I don't think these numbers exist - I think he has a tree from 1-20, or something like that.
If your table is correct then Egwene came into her strength very late. I've always been of the opinion that Nynaeve's been leaps and bounds ahead and that the distance has remained relatively constant as they've grown in power. I also think that the bonfire quote shouldn't be put in the trash merely because it's hyperbole. On the other hand, there's a strong theory out there that RJ intended Nynaeve and the Forsaken to have god-like strength, but changed it later in the series, and thus all the early quotes about Nynaeve holding half a full circle with a sa'angreal, and ten AS equal a weak Forsaken etc.
Whatever. I do think we agree on the relative rankings even if we don't agree on their relative powers. I wouldn't mind knowing how strong Alivia is compared to Graendal and Lanfear. I do wonder if Alivia is equal to Lanfear. That would be a surprise.
I also agree that either table is possible.
Problem is that 13 women would wipe the floor with any man! Even LTT comments that he doesn't think he can manage 7 women, and Rand was held by 4 women in LOC after he had already shown he was stronger than several Forsaken men.
I think Alivia is very close to Lanfear, I see the top women as all very close Moggy-Lanfear about 15% with Egwene level not far behind her or she wouldn't have bothered with mentioning Elayne's strength.
I agree that RJ clearly rejiggered the relative strengths of Nyna to Egwene ... early in the series it seemed like all the FS level people were incredibly more powerful than the others. But then as things progressed he seemed to even it out quite a bit, thus I think Egwene and Elayne are closer to the FS than "normal" AS, adding Cadsuan into the mix only widens the gap ... we know from seeing Nyna and Semi shielded by relatively weak circles that they aren't that far ahead of Egwene. We have been told that a weaker circle/individual can hold a shield (within reason) ... perhaps need to be 65%? 75%? We know Nyna couldn't simple smother Elayne with brute force. We know Nyna grew almost not at all between TSR and LOC (she's equal to Moggy at the end of LOC), but we also know that Elayne and Egwene were each still growing at that point.
Personally I think Nynaeve made rapid progress from being around Moiraine's level in TGH (Moiraine tells Siuan that Nynaeve is already as strong as Sister) before she really started actively Channeling to Moggy's level by end of TSR, but her growth slowed significantly after that. We also know that she grows almost not at all from PoD to the end of WH since she's exactly equal to Talaan in both books.
Meanwhile Egwene and Elayne were much weaker than Moiraine until midway through TSR. By tFoH Egwene at least was nearly 2x stronger than Moiraine. Part of the problem is the timeframes of the books shorten up so much that we lose track of how much real time falls between certain events.
It's not really important, and like you I'm rather tired of the discussion, I only started this thread to get off the who killed Asmo kick

In the end I think the author didn't really want us to know as it allowed him the maximum leeway in writing. All that I can really say is that it's clear that Egwene-level is clearly strong enough to "problematic" to the Forsaken and that they can pretty much pull off any weave. Something the weaker levels aren't really capable of for the most part.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
31/05/2010 02:17:06 PM
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Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
31/05/2010 04:18:08 PM
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I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl.
31/05/2010 07:51:08 PM
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Egwene plus Aviendha roughly equal Lanfaer. And yet Lanfear isn't close to double Nynaeve's strength
31/05/2010 09:07:06 PM
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Egwene and Aviendha combined in TFoH (when Avi had been channeling for only a few months)
31/05/2010 09:22:17 PM
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We've done this so many times. Even I have lost the strength for it. What can I still muster...
31/05/2010 09:38:24 PM
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again with the interpretive quoting
31/05/2010 11:05:58 PM
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Individual interpretation is all we've got really
01/06/2010 06:32:05 PM
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agreed, sort of
04/06/2010 12:57:00 PM
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Consider this...
04/06/2010 01:21:43 PM
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You continue to translate things. That is NOT how the quote reads
04/06/2010 01:30:43 PM
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Not my fault if the books prove you wrong
04/06/2010 01:41:00 PM
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I'm denying that you have a clue
04/06/2010 01:51:14 PM
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Bonfire next to a candle. I rest my case.
04/06/2010 01:53:59 PM
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then Nynaeve is the Creator
04/06/2010 02:03:27 PM
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Estimating potential is exact, fragmentary historical notes are not. And RJ disproves your point..
04/06/2010 02:57:32 PM
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The books disagree with this
04/06/2010 03:24:46 PM
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Right, NOW we're getting somewhere...
04/06/2010 03:57:32 PM
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You are hilarious
04/06/2010 04:06:37 PM
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Close the door on your way out...
04/06/2010 04:21:11 PM
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no I just refuse to bother with a jackass who doesn't know the text well enough to debate *NM*
04/06/2010 10:35:09 PM
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Re: agreed, sort of
04/06/2010 04:46:59 PM
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this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though
04/06/2010 10:33:04 PM
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Re: this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though
04/06/2010 10:56:01 PM
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It's all good, I do respect your thoughts on this BTW
04/06/2010 11:28:45 PM
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No, Rand was not stronger than the male Forsaken at the start of tSR...
01/06/2010 09:27:47 AM
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Aginor burned out attempting to use the Eye, which Rand managed to do without burning out *NM*
01/06/2010 12:06:01 PM
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The Eye was just a source of the Power - like a well, just bigger.
01/06/2010 12:17:29 PM
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nope
01/06/2010 12:52:46 PM
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Re: I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl.
01/06/2010 02:18:38 AM
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I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger
01/06/2010 12:44:20 PM
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If 3 sisters can hold you, it probaly means you are as strong as 4 sisters...
01/06/2010 06:37:01 PM
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Re: I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger
01/06/2010 06:43:08 PM
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Sidenote: What's with Elayne dumping people into the river?
31/05/2010 06:22:26 PM
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Not Elayne, Egwene in Cairhien. She went to meet the Windfinder and got kicked out. Wasn't awesome *NM*
31/05/2010 07:13:25 PM
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Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
31/05/2010 07:21:32 PM
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Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
31/05/2010 07:41:02 PM
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Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
01/06/2010 06:07:35 PM
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Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha
01/06/2010 06:21:29 PM
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Remember gatways
31/05/2010 09:15:31 PM
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I agree that it's probably some kind of max height you can lift an object
31/05/2010 09:25:25 PM
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I think lifting people on flows of air is much like weaving bridges.
01/06/2010 07:42:59 AM
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I'm pretty convinced that 'strength' really refers to your skill and experience.
01/06/2010 08:35:16 PM
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Strength is a touchy word in this case...
03/06/2010 07:31:19 AM
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