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Re: this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though Sidious Send a noteboard - 04/06/2010 10:56:01 PM
you put too much variance at the top and not enough in the middle for it to work. If Egwene was truly as low as you put her (and friends) there would be a ton more women between her and Moghedien. The fact that we have only see what 5 women in the series who fall between Egwene and Nynaeve is all I need to confirm that Nyna is closer to 95, Moghedien 85-90 and Egwene 75-80.

If you look at it from AS strength... there are clear levels.

Daigain = 1 unit of AS Strength (15)

Namelle Sisters = 1.5 unit of AS Strength (22 )

Verin = 2 units of AS Strength (30) ... slightly above average Sisters need margin above and below.

Sheriam = 2.5 unit of AS Strength (38 )

Moiraine = 3 units of AS Strength (45) ... Siuan's new strength is the key here

Kerene = 3.5 unit of AS Strength (53 )

Cadusane = 4 units of AS Strength (60) ... significantly stronger than Moiraine, but not at Egwene level

Bode = 4.5 unit of AS Strength (68 )

Egwene = 5 units of AS Strength (75) ... Amys + Melaine makes this her minimum since Melaine the weaker of the two, notes that she is stronger than most AS, 75 is the minimum here

Moghedien = 5.5 unit of AS Strength ( 83 )

Nyneave = 6 Units of AS Strength (90) Minimum level for Nynaeve IMO, she could easily be more like a 95

Alivia = 6.5 unit of AS Strength (98 )

Lanfear = 6.7 units of AS Strength (100) There is no way any of the FS could be more than this and have 3 women hold a shield on them reliably for a long period of time.

Obviously these are approximations, but it's pretty easy to map out since we know that Siuan is between 1/2 and 1/3 of her old strength, but not the weakest AS. We know Egwene is close to 2x Siuan, and that even the strongest female channelers cannot break through a shield held by 4 women of Daigian level (as evidenced by Semirhage). Even Rand was held by 4 women, who combined MAY have approached 10 Daigians, and we know that men have "several levels above women". Logain was held by 6 women in the same book and he's close to the max male strength... I'd write that off to knowing the weakest sisters wind up with the responsibility as Cadsuane implies later in the series ... so maybe about the same as the 4 women that held Rand?

Shannow relies too much on edited and interpreted quotes for me to even bother with him any more. So whatever... his posts just make me believe even more strongly in my point of view.

Things like his claim that OP Strength in women is a exact ... WRONG:

LOC
To Heal Again

"Everything goes into it," Siuan explained. "Who learned fastest, who spent the least time as novice and Accepted. There are all sorts of shadings. You can’t say precisely how strong anyone is. Two women might seem to be the same strength; maybe they are and maybe not, but the only way to say for certain would be a duel, and the Light be blessed, we’re above that. Unless Nynaeve returns us to our full strength, we run the risk of standing fairly low."

Drives me nuts when people edit quotes, ignore context and then draw conclusions/interpretations which they present as fact.


Well at least we know now what we each believe Sorry, but I can never speak about the bell curve again. I literally spent two months speaking about it once and about a hundred posts. I've run out of fuel

A lot of my numbers come from shielding. My assumption is that to match a channeler you need to be at least as strong as them, which has been reasonably demonstrated throughout the series. If thirteen women can match most men, and thirteen AS can smother any man, then your table has problems - unless you have an excuse like saidin vs saidar, or the strength loss in linking.

13 weak women = 13 x 5 = 65 (strong men can hold this off)
13 weak AS = 13 x 10 = 130 (no man can hold this off)
Rand can face any three women unless one is Forsaken = 3x20 = 60 (vs 20 + 20 + 90 = 130)
Six women can hold any man = 6x20 = 120
Strong men can break through five women = 5x20 = 100

AS have strength from 10-25, so this remains tough. Realistically they would take their individual powers into account, but in the books I'm sure this is not the case while holding a male.

I like my table better, but I don't find yours ridiculous or unlikely either. It wouldn't be a surprise if either of our tables was correct. That said, I don't think these numbers exist - I think he has a tree from 1-20, or something like that.

If your table is correct then Egwene came into her strength very late. I've always been of the opinion that Nynaeve's been leaps and bounds ahead and that the distance has remained relatively constant as they've grown in power. I also think that the bonfire quote shouldn't be put in the trash merely because it's hyperbole. On the other hand, there's a strong theory out there that RJ intended Nynaeve and the Forsaken to have god-like strength, but changed it later in the series, and thus all the early quotes about Nynaeve holding half a full circle with a sa'angreal, and ten AS equal a weak Forsaken etc.

Whatever. I do think we agree on the relative rankings even if we don't agree on their relative powers. I wouldn't mind knowing how strong Alivia is compared to Graendal and Lanfear. I do wonder if Alivia is equal to Lanfear. That would be a surprise.

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 04/06/2010 at 11:05:10 PM
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Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha - 31/05/2010 02:17:06 PM 1214 Views
Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha - 31/05/2010 04:18:08 PM 799 Views
I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl. - 31/05/2010 07:51:08 PM 681 Views
Egwene plus Aviendha roughly equal Lanfaer. And yet Lanfear isn't close to double Nynaeve's strength - 31/05/2010 09:07:06 PM 580 Views
Egwene and Aviendha combined in TFoH (when Avi had been channeling for only a few months) - 31/05/2010 09:22:17 PM 695 Views
We've done this so many times. Even I have lost the strength for it. What can I still muster... - 31/05/2010 09:38:24 PM 637 Views
again with the interpretive quoting - 31/05/2010 11:05:58 PM 674 Views
Individual interpretation is all we've got really - 01/06/2010 06:32:05 PM 618 Views
agreed, sort of - 04/06/2010 12:57:00 PM 623 Views
Consider this... - 04/06/2010 01:21:43 PM 597 Views
You continue to translate things. That is NOT how the quote reads - 04/06/2010 01:30:43 PM 389 Views
Not my fault if the books prove you wrong - 04/06/2010 01:41:00 PM 521 Views
I'm denying that you have a clue - 04/06/2010 01:51:14 PM 565 Views
Bonfire next to a candle. I rest my case. - 04/06/2010 01:53:59 PM 442 Views
then Nynaeve is the Creator - 04/06/2010 02:03:27 PM 555 Views
Estimating potential is exact, fragmentary historical notes are not. And RJ disproves your point.. - 04/06/2010 02:57:32 PM 656 Views
The books disagree with this - 04/06/2010 03:24:46 PM 488 Views
Right, NOW we're getting somewhere... - 04/06/2010 03:57:32 PM 601 Views
You are hilarious - 04/06/2010 04:06:37 PM 400 Views
Close the door on your way out... - 04/06/2010 04:21:11 PM 435 Views
Re: agreed, sort of - 04/06/2010 04:46:59 PM 1285 Views
Reminds me of some of our ancient debates... - 04/06/2010 05:03:05 PM 535 Views
this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though - 04/06/2010 10:33:04 PM 650 Views
Re: this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though - 04/06/2010 10:56:01 PM 546 Views
It's all good, I do respect your thoughts on this BTW - 04/06/2010 11:28:45 PM 500 Views
No, Rand was not stronger than the male Forsaken at the start of tSR... - 01/06/2010 09:27:47 AM 538 Views
Aginor burned out attempting to use the Eye, which Rand managed to do without burning out *NM* - 01/06/2010 12:06:01 PM 298 Views
The Eye was just a source of the Power - like a well, just bigger. - 01/06/2010 12:17:29 PM 562 Views
nope - 01/06/2010 12:52:46 PM 568 Views
You know that is not correct... - 01/06/2010 01:30:35 PM 598 Views
right or wrong it's in the text! - 01/06/2010 01:47:35 PM 672 Views
Remember gatways - 31/05/2010 09:15:31 PM 504 Views
I agree that it's probably some kind of max height you can lift an object - 31/05/2010 09:25:25 PM 483 Views
I think lifting people on flows of air is much like weaving bridges. - 01/06/2010 07:42:59 AM 645 Views
I think you are correct actually. - 01/06/2010 12:53:21 PM 680 Views
Yes. - 01/06/2010 08:43:33 PM 430 Views
My own thougth was off base! - 01/06/2010 12:54:19 PM 505 Views
I'm pretty convinced that 'strength' really refers to your skill and experience. - 01/06/2010 08:35:16 PM 596 Views
Strength is a touchy word in this case... - 03/06/2010 07:31:19 AM 574 Views
Re: Strength is a touchy word in this case... - 04/06/2010 04:52:33 PM 411 Views
I see effectiveness much the same - 05/06/2010 05:17:57 PM 719 Views

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