Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: agreed, sort of :) by Sidious

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Re: agreed, sort of

Sidious Send a noteboard - 04/06/2010 04:46:59 PM

I've always thought "considerably" was a problem. What does it really mean? Especially when coming from Reanne, whose world view is rather skewed in terms of OP Strength. When you are talking about the volume of power involved with Nynaeve and Alivia even a small percent difference (let's say 5% for arguments sake) would equate to a "considerable volume of saidar" to a woman less than half as strong as these women.

Let's say Alivia is a 99, and is 5% stronger than Nynaeve. When you are Reanne and that 5% represents maybe as much as 15% of the total amount of saidar you can draw that's a considerable difference.

Well indeed, and this is why people cannot reach consensus on anything. Reanne's quote is pretty direct, but you think that considerable is 'not considerable'. Of course I mean no offence, but then you can see how perspective screws everything up. Should we look at the quotes as if we're Forsaken, where 5 points represent a small difference, or should we be like Aes Sedai and consider 1 point to be a whole level?

Reanne's statement could mean that there's a large difference between Nynaeve and Alivia, or a relatively large one. We just don't know. I think it's a truly large difference. Nynaeve says in WH that Alivia could overwhelm her no matter what she tried. But some people think that this is symbol of Nynaeve's poor self-image (she says this after Talaan beat her up). So really, this all comes down to pointless fun.

Personally I think Nynaeve at full strength is likely as strong as Egwene combined with a weak sister, say Siuan or Daigian. Meaning Egwene would have to link with someone as strong as say a Verin or Alanna to have equal to Nynaeve's strength. However, because both Egwene and Nynaeve are so far above the normal AS this represents about a 20% increase from Egwene to Nynaeve.

On my scale Egwene is around an 80, Moghedien 85, Nynaeve 97, Lanfear 100. Moiraine would be a 50, Sheriam 45, Verin about a 30 and Daigian around 15...

I'm going to to have to go for...
- Lanfear 100
- Cyndane 97
- Graendal/Alivia/Sharina/Someryn 95
- Nynaeve/Semirhage 90
- Mesaana 85
- Moghedien 70
- Tamela/Viendre 60
- Egwene and friends 50
- Cadsuane 30
- Moiraine 25
- Most Aes Sedai 15-25
- Daigian 10
- Sorilea 5
- Morgase 1

There is no quote this doesn't fulfil, but it also doesn't mean it's the only possibility.

This squares with the various quotes as long as you assume Egwene and Nynaeve are still growing as late as WH, neither would be stronger than 90% of their potential thus far so Alivia being considerably stronger than Nynaeve would be reasonable.

It's important to note that IMO a man who is equally effective to Egwene would be able to channel a significantly larger volume of saidin, just as Rand can probably channel a far larger quantity than Lanfear can, even though they are effectively equal in what they can accomplish.

Well saidar is more dense IMO. Women channel water and men channel air... so women have less of a more dense substance, but the effect is the same.

One last note ... my intent with Shannow is not to be rude, but his consistent misquoting of the text is infuriating! you can't say "Egwene and Aviendha might be able to match Lanfear" when the quote reads they could overwhelm her. There is a significant difference in those two statements.

Yeah, I can see how nicely you two are getting along

Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear

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Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 02:17:06 PM 1215 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha DomA - 31/05/2010 04:18:08 PM 800 Views

I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl. darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 07:51:08 PM 682 Views

Egwene plus Aviendha roughly equal Lanfaer. And yet Lanfear isn't close to double Nynaeve's strength Shannow - 31/05/2010 09:07:06 PM 580 Views

Egwene and Aviendha combined in TFoH (when Avi had been channeling for only a few months) darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 09:22:17 PM 696 Views

We've done this so many times. Even I have lost the strength for it. What can I still muster... Shannow - 31/05/2010 09:38:24 PM 638 Views

again with the interpretive quoting darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 11:05:58 PM 675 Views

Individual interpretation is all we've got really

Sidious - 01/06/2010 06:32:05 PM 619 Views

agreed, sort of

darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 12:57:00 PM 623 Views

Consider this... Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:21:43 PM 597 Views

You continue to translate things. That is NOT how the quote reads darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 01:30:43 PM 390 Views

Not my fault if the books prove you wrong Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:41:00 PM 521 Views

I'm denying that you have a clue darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 01:51:14 PM 565 Views

Bonfire next to a candle. I rest my case. Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:53:59 PM 443 Views

then Nynaeve is the Creator darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 02:03:27 PM 556 Views

Estimating potential is exact, fragmentary historical notes are not. And RJ disproves your point.. Shannow - 04/06/2010 02:57:32 PM 656 Views

The books disagree with this darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 03:24:46 PM 488 Views

Right, NOW we're getting somewhere... Shannow - 04/06/2010 03:57:32 PM 602 Views

You are hilarious darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 04:06:37 PM 401 Views

Close the door on your way out... Shannow - 04/06/2010 04:21:11 PM 435 Views

no I just refuse to bother with a jackass who doesn't know the text well enough to debate *NM* darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 10:35:09 PM 269 Views

Re: agreed, sort of

Sidious - 04/06/2010 04:46:59 PM 1286 Views

Reminds me of some of our ancient debates... Shannow - 04/06/2010 05:03:05 PM 536 Views

this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 10:33:04 PM 651 Views

Re: this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though Sidious - 04/06/2010 10:56:01 PM 546 Views

It's all good, I do respect your thoughts on this BTW darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 11:28:45 PM 501 Views

No, Rand was not stronger than the male Forsaken at the start of tSR... Shannow - 01/06/2010 09:27:47 AM 538 Views

Aginor burned out attempting to use the Eye, which Rand managed to do without burning out *NM* darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:06:01 PM 299 Views

The Eye was just a source of the Power - like a well, just bigger. Shannow - 01/06/2010 12:17:29 PM 562 Views

nope darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:52:46 PM 569 Views

You know that is not correct... Shannow - 01/06/2010 01:30:35 PM 599 Views

right or wrong it's in the text! darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 01:47:35 PM 673 Views

Re: I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl. DomA - 01/06/2010 02:18:38 AM 658 Views

I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:44:20 PM 711 Views

If 3 sisters can hold you, it probaly means you are as strong as 4 sisters... Shannow - 01/06/2010 06:37:01 PM 463 Views

Re: I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger Sidious - 01/06/2010 06:43:08 PM 468 Views

Sidenote: What's with Elayne dumping people into the river? beetnemesis - 31/05/2010 06:22:26 PM 491 Views

Not Elayne, Egwene in Cairhien. She went to meet the Windfinder and got kicked out. Wasn't awesome *NM* Lordling - 31/05/2010 07:13:25 PM 378 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha Skeeve the Great - 31/05/2010 07:21:32 PM 531 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 07:41:02 PM 503 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha Skeeve the Great - 01/06/2010 06:07:35 PM 441 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 06:21:29 PM 452 Views

Remember gatways Kieran - 31/05/2010 09:15:31 PM 505 Views

I agree that it's probably some kind of max height you can lift an object darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 09:25:25 PM 484 Views

I think lifting people on flows of air is much like weaving bridges. FanEditor10 - 01/06/2010 07:42:59 AM 645 Views

I think you are correct actually. darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:53:21 PM 681 Views

Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/06/2010 08:43:33 PM 430 Views

My own thougth was off base! darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:54:19 PM 506 Views

I'm pretty convinced that 'strength' really refers to your skill and experience. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/06/2010 08:35:16 PM 596 Views

Strength is a touchy word in this case... FanEditor10 - 03/06/2010 07:31:19 AM 575 Views

Re: Strength is a touchy word in this case... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/06/2010 04:52:33 PM 412 Views

I see effectiveness much the same darius_sedai - 05/06/2010 05:17:57 PM 720 Views

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<quote>I've always thought "considerably" was a problem.  What does it really mean?  Especially when coming from Reanne, whose world view is rather skewed in terms of OP Strength.  When you are talking about the volume of power involved with Nynaeve and Alivia even a small percent difference (let's say 5% for arguments sake) would equate to a "considerable volume of saidar" to a woman less than half as strong as these women.

Let's say Alivia is a 99, and is 5% stronger than Nynaeve.  When you are Reanne and that 5% represents maybe as much as 15% of the total amount of saidar you can draw that's a considerable difference.</quote>

Reanne's statement could mean that there's a large difference between Nynaeve and Alivia, or a relatively large one. We just don't know. I think it's a truly large difference. Nynaeve says in WH that Alivia could overwhelm her no matter what she tried. But some people think that this is symbol of Nynaeve's poor self-image (she says this after Talaan beat her up). So really, this all comes down to pointless fun.

<quote>Personally I think Nynaeve at full strength is likely as strong as Egwene combined with a weak sister, say Siuan or Daigian.  Meaning Egwene would have to link with someone as strong as say a Verin or Alanna to have equal to Nynaeve's strength.  However, because both Egwene and Nynaeve are so far above the normal AS this represents about a 20% increase from Egwene to Nynaeve.

On my scale Egwene is around an 80, Moghedien 85, Nynaeve 97, Lanfear 100.  Moiraine would be a 50, Sheriam 45, Verin about a 30 and Daigian around 15... </quote>

There is no quote this doesn't fulfil, but it also doesn't mean it's the only possibility.

<quote>This squares with the various quotes as long as you assume Egwene and Nynaeve are still growing as late as WH, neither would be stronger than 90% of their potential thus far so Alivia being considerably stronger than Nynaeve would be reasonable.

It's important to note that IMO a man who is equally effective to Egwene would be able to channel a significantly larger volume of saidin, just as Rand can probably channel a far larger quantity than Lanfear can, even though they are effectively equal in what they can accomplish.</quote>

Well saidar is more dense IMO. Women channel water and men channel air... so women have less of a more dense substance, but the effect is the same.

<quote>One last note ... my intent with Shannow is not to be rude, but his consistent misquoting of the text is infuriating!  you can't say "Egwene and Aviendha might be able to match Lanfear" when the quote reads they could overwhelm her.  There is a significant difference in those two statements.</quote>

Yeah, I can see how nicely you two are getting along :P
</quote>

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