Re: Thought on Rand's "death" at Tarmon Gaidon
newyorkersedai Send a noteboard - 03/06/2010 06:53:06 AM
No special knowledge is needed, although checking out the encyclopedia-wot is always good. It's a nice resource when you forget how many Ages there are in a one turn of the wheel (7, apparently). And unpaid hobbies are only supposed to take up so much time...
The big problem is that we've been given little information on this topic. Since these moments will probably be the cap on the story of the 3rd Age, I can understand why...
One of the big theories going - one I'd simply assumed a while back - is that Rand's "connection" to Moridin will allow him to somehow "switch" bodies when he dies. This is supported by the fact that we have visions of Rand surviving his death, and visions of him removing a mask from his face. It just screams that he will seem to be someone else.
In retrospect, there are some problems with it. The big one is: I don't know what effect the DO's death/sealing will have on Morry, but that guy's channeling the "true power" all the time. This makes suddenly being a dark-haired former-Chosen a little less appealing, right?
Or Rand will only appear to be dead. Maybe there will be no heartbeat, maybe he'll be in a state of deep hibernation for days - but Rand will be in his own body, apparently dead. There's been some prophecy that *seems* to point to Rand: it's something about a person who looks totally dead, but is in fact alive... I'm vague on the details, but the vision gave no clues to the circumstances. The little info it offered points to Rand's apparent demise.
Or Rand might somehow make someone else look like him. He might sacrifice someone (or a dead body) to fool the Shadow into thinking he's dead. Or he might go into TG with a decoy somehow. There's something from the Prophecies that adds an extra twist to it: someone who gets Callandor after Rand will "follow after." It's really a thin thread, but it could be interpreted to mean that whoever handed Callandor to Rand (Narishma?, IIRC) might have a deeper connection to Rand. What better connection than serving as Rand's new body? Or the decoy that makes everyone think Rand is gone?
As for the Xian parallels and the Creator: I like the idea, but I don't know that it will happen. Benevolent deities are always written as "sorta" hands-off; they help in "little ways," but that's all. And in TEoTW, Rand receives his only message from (presumably) the Creator - and the big C says that it cannot actively take part or help. I would like for the Creator to completely validate Rand, but I don't think it'll happen. I guess Randland's God makes a special allowance for actually telling its Champion that he's not just insane...
The descriptions that we've seen of Rand's death - a funeral bier, 3 women, etc - seem to be pretty Arthurian really. The only difference is that it seems Rand will get a Viking burial (read: his body burned on a boat), not wounded and accompanied by 3 witches to "Avalon." That story ends with a savior being "near death" and his promised return. Yet I can't see that as a satisfying end to the WoT.
In terms of the typical Good versus evil story, Benevolent Gods = Harsh (But Morally Correct) Kinda-Jerks. This means that you'll get beaten half to death, but your mom hugs you afterwards and you feel a little better inside. So the Pattern might not offer Rand any greater reward than is available to all other humans - rebirth through the Wheel itself. It's the same deal everyone else gets, and it *is* a sort of balm for the pain he has experienced in this life. He gets another life (even if he's not the exact same person), and he gets to enjoy it then.
It's asinine and unfair to make someone give up their youth, innocence, body, free will, and mind for the sake of the rest of the world. And it's really asinine and unfair when you don't offer that person any sort of real recompense for what they've lost. Rand deserves a chance to taste "a real life" without doing it through reincarnation. But heroes are always asked to make sacrifices with no promise that it will all be made up to them in the end. I guess that's what separates the good folk from the bad. And it's a cliche of hero-writing that may never go away.
In the absence of more info, I'd say Rand will end up in Moridin's body. A necessary assumption is that this new Morry won't have those darn spots in his vision all the time, so maybe the DO and his power will be totally sealed off. It's the theory with the best support, IMO.
The only other idea I can think of is based on 2 things: (a) those "firefly" visions that Min has, (b) the DO is in some mystical prison that's supposed to be perfectly sealed by the time he's next released.
It's the fireflies that got me. Rand's group of fireflies is shown as better able to combat the Dark when they're together. As the series progresses and more people are working to the same end, Min's visions suggest that those fireflies (read: the good guys) are actually holding their own against the DO.
I think the fireflies extend beyond Min, Mat, Nyn, Thom, etc. I think they include "everyone" - by which I mean, all the non-Dark folks being together in rejecting evil. The fireflies are "lights," but they're also people. This sounds a lot like souls, especially those that aren't tainted by the Dark itself. The Pattern is made up of people (like Soylent Green!), and their souls are spun out again and again. If I see a bunch of symbolic lights combating a cloud of darkness, I immediately start thinking that it's the *souls themselves* that are the real threat to the bad guys. Rand is the foremost tool for fighting the DO, but is there any special weave that can re-create the Creator's work? Probably not.
This leads me to think that it's "everyone" (read: the good guys) who'll somehow "will" (best word I can think of), the DO to be sealed away. And just maybe - while the good guys are using their part in the Pattern (their souls/lives) to influence the Pattern and write the DO out of it, they will take a moment and do something about their poor, dead Champion.
It's all just speculation, though. And I've written way more in response than I intended.
Thoughts?
The big problem is that we've been given little information on this topic. Since these moments will probably be the cap on the story of the 3rd Age, I can understand why...
One of the big theories going - one I'd simply assumed a while back - is that Rand's "connection" to Moridin will allow him to somehow "switch" bodies when he dies. This is supported by the fact that we have visions of Rand surviving his death, and visions of him removing a mask from his face. It just screams that he will seem to be someone else.
In retrospect, there are some problems with it. The big one is: I don't know what effect the DO's death/sealing will have on Morry, but that guy's channeling the "true power" all the time. This makes suddenly being a dark-haired former-Chosen a little less appealing, right?
Or Rand will only appear to be dead. Maybe there will be no heartbeat, maybe he'll be in a state of deep hibernation for days - but Rand will be in his own body, apparently dead. There's been some prophecy that *seems* to point to Rand: it's something about a person who looks totally dead, but is in fact alive... I'm vague on the details, but the vision gave no clues to the circumstances. The little info it offered points to Rand's apparent demise.
Or Rand might somehow make someone else look like him. He might sacrifice someone (or a dead body) to fool the Shadow into thinking he's dead. Or he might go into TG with a decoy somehow. There's something from the Prophecies that adds an extra twist to it: someone who gets Callandor after Rand will "follow after." It's really a thin thread, but it could be interpreted to mean that whoever handed Callandor to Rand (Narishma?, IIRC) might have a deeper connection to Rand. What better connection than serving as Rand's new body? Or the decoy that makes everyone think Rand is gone?
As for the Xian parallels and the Creator: I like the idea, but I don't know that it will happen. Benevolent deities are always written as "sorta" hands-off; they help in "little ways," but that's all. And in TEoTW, Rand receives his only message from (presumably) the Creator - and the big C says that it cannot actively take part or help. I would like for the Creator to completely validate Rand, but I don't think it'll happen. I guess Randland's God makes a special allowance for actually telling its Champion that he's not just insane...
The descriptions that we've seen of Rand's death - a funeral bier, 3 women, etc - seem to be pretty Arthurian really. The only difference is that it seems Rand will get a Viking burial (read: his body burned on a boat), not wounded and accompanied by 3 witches to "Avalon." That story ends with a savior being "near death" and his promised return. Yet I can't see that as a satisfying end to the WoT.
In terms of the typical Good versus evil story, Benevolent Gods = Harsh (But Morally Correct) Kinda-Jerks. This means that you'll get beaten half to death, but your mom hugs you afterwards and you feel a little better inside. So the Pattern might not offer Rand any greater reward than is available to all other humans - rebirth through the Wheel itself. It's the same deal everyone else gets, and it *is* a sort of balm for the pain he has experienced in this life. He gets another life (even if he's not the exact same person), and he gets to enjoy it then.
It's asinine and unfair to make someone give up their youth, innocence, body, free will, and mind for the sake of the rest of the world. And it's really asinine and unfair when you don't offer that person any sort of real recompense for what they've lost. Rand deserves a chance to taste "a real life" without doing it through reincarnation. But heroes are always asked to make sacrifices with no promise that it will all be made up to them in the end. I guess that's what separates the good folk from the bad. And it's a cliche of hero-writing that may never go away.
In the absence of more info, I'd say Rand will end up in Moridin's body. A necessary assumption is that this new Morry won't have those darn spots in his vision all the time, so maybe the DO and his power will be totally sealed off. It's the theory with the best support, IMO.
The only other idea I can think of is based on 2 things: (a) those "firefly" visions that Min has, (b) the DO is in some mystical prison that's supposed to be perfectly sealed by the time he's next released.
It's the fireflies that got me. Rand's group of fireflies is shown as better able to combat the Dark when they're together. As the series progresses and more people are working to the same end, Min's visions suggest that those fireflies (read: the good guys) are actually holding their own against the DO.
I think the fireflies extend beyond Min, Mat, Nyn, Thom, etc. I think they include "everyone" - by which I mean, all the non-Dark folks being together in rejecting evil. The fireflies are "lights," but they're also people. This sounds a lot like souls, especially those that aren't tainted by the Dark itself. The Pattern is made up of people (like Soylent Green!), and their souls are spun out again and again. If I see a bunch of symbolic lights combating a cloud of darkness, I immediately start thinking that it's the *souls themselves* that are the real threat to the bad guys. Rand is the foremost tool for fighting the DO, but is there any special weave that can re-create the Creator's work? Probably not.
This leads me to think that it's "everyone" (read: the good guys) who'll somehow "will" (best word I can think of), the DO to be sealed away. And just maybe - while the good guys are using their part in the Pattern (their souls/lives) to influence the Pattern and write the DO out of it, they will take a moment and do something about their poor, dead Champion.
It's all just speculation, though. And I've written way more in response than I intended.
Thoughts?
I admittedly am not well-versed in inside information, posts on other forums, Q&A, or spoilers.
Having said that I think some part of the ending to the series has to do with Rand's death and rebirth at the end of Tarmon Gaidon.
The Finns were obliquely clear that to live, Rand must die.
I think Rand will most likely die in the last battle, spilling his "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" but just as the DO seems to be able to grant his Chosen immortality and new bodies, I think that after dying, and very possibly after everyone has begun to mourn, Rand will be "reborn" or reanimated by the Creator in his current Rand body and will awaken to much joy and "My god, he's ALIVE!"
If the DO can do these things for the Chosen, it seems plausible that the Creator, who shelters the heroes of the pattern, would reward Rand for his service to the light by allowing him to live out his life.
It also fits with some of the Christian parallels (one man being born to save mankind) and, I hate to say it, would be similar to the Harry Potter ending when he spends some time in between with Dumbledore and then returns to life.
Anyone have any "insider knowledge" or thoughts?
Having said that I think some part of the ending to the series has to do with Rand's death and rebirth at the end of Tarmon Gaidon.
The Finns were obliquely clear that to live, Rand must die.
I think Rand will most likely die in the last battle, spilling his "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" but just as the DO seems to be able to grant his Chosen immortality and new bodies, I think that after dying, and very possibly after everyone has begun to mourn, Rand will be "reborn" or reanimated by the Creator in his current Rand body and will awaken to much joy and "My god, he's ALIVE!"
If the DO can do these things for the Chosen, it seems plausible that the Creator, who shelters the heroes of the pattern, would reward Rand for his service to the light by allowing him to live out his life.
It also fits with some of the Christian parallels (one man being born to save mankind) and, I hate to say it, would be similar to the Harry Potter ending when he spends some time in between with Dumbledore and then returns to life.
Anyone have any "insider knowledge" or thoughts?
Thought on Rand's "death" at Tarmon Gaidon
03/06/2010 05:17:17 AM
- 1190 Views
Re: Thought on Rand's "death" at Tarmon Gaidon
03/06/2010 06:53:06 AM
- 864 Views
Rand dies and is called back by the Horn for Tarmon Gaidon? *NM*
03/06/2010 11:06:49 AM
- 272 Views
This may deserve its own thread, but is the Dragon a Hero of the Horn? Are any Channelers Heroes?
03/06/2010 05:14:35 PM
- 599 Views
I always took this to indicate that the channelers have active trait potential for Pattern-twisting
03/06/2010 10:08:50 PM
- 572 Views
Those Christian parallels are likely exagerrated
03/06/2010 01:57:29 PM
- 840 Views
Your post just gave me a thought.
03/06/2010 05:38:32 PM
- 589 Views
My simple thoughts.
03/06/2010 05:09:46 PM
- 729 Views
Re: My simple thoughts.
08/06/2010 01:36:30 AM
- 642 Views
That's not what I meant.
10/06/2010 07:01:19 AM
- 624 Views