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Of course, it is false Etzel Send a noteboard - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM
Because of your statement, the phrase "a murder of opportunity" - which was never actually used by RJ! - "more than implies that the killer did NOT plan it." This is completely wrong.

Means, motive and opportunity are typical criterias in any murder, irrespective of the question if the murder was planned or not. It's also false that if opportunity is the most important criteria in a specific murder, it must mean that this murder wasn't planned at all, but just some kind of unplanned accident or chance.

To get a better understanding of what we are actually talking about, you should read the Wikipedia article about it [link below].

I cite:
"In US Criminal law, means, motive, and opportunity is a popular cultural summation of the three aspects of a crime needed to convince a jury of guilt in a criminal proceeding. Respectively, they refer to: the ability of the defendant to commit the crime (means), the reason the defendant had to commit the crime (motive), and whether or not the defendant had the opportunity to commit the crime (opportunity)."

And the corresponding example:
"If a criminal shot someone with a handgun and took his/her money when the victim was in an isolated, secluded area at night, the means would be the handgun, the motive financial (i.e., the money they stole), and the opportunity the fact that it would be unlikely someone else would witness or stop them."

So, the mentioning of opportunity as being important by RJ doesn't tell us at all that the murder wasn't planned.

As said before, some people just claim that RJ's usage of the term "road kill" would prove that the murder was basically an accident. This is wrong as well, though, since we don't know the context in which RJ mentioned this. It's at least as likely that RJ just wanted to paraphrase his reasons as an author to take the redundant character Asmo from the story with "road kill". Otherwise, if RJ actually wanted to give such a major clue to the murder, it could even have the meaning of "political road kill", which would indicate that Asmo was killed on the orders of one of his Forsaken rivals.
Means, motive, and opportunity
This message last edited by Etzel on 02/06/2010 at 12:13:51 PM
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An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 12:12:50 PM 2578 Views
I hate to say it, as I love this mystery.... - 27/05/2010 03:01:08 PM 1326 Views
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It's not really obvious... - 28/05/2010 09:08:27 AM 1065 Views
In addition to Etzel's comments - 28/05/2010 09:08:45 PM 977 Views
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very well said *NM* - 27/05/2010 04:19:10 PM 743 Views
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The way you twist things, it certainly seems so! - 27/05/2010 05:07:22 PM 1213 Views
Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 05:17:37 PM 1081 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 27/05/2010 08:14:16 PM 1116 Views
The point is... - 28/05/2010 08:38:49 AM 1158 Views
Yes, but Fain is a far cry from your average non-channeler - 28/05/2010 12:01:44 PM 1201 Views
As is Slayer - 28/05/2010 12:25:07 PM 1064 Views
There is no evidence of this at all - 28/05/2010 12:32:37 PM 1043 Views
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so far we've seen Slayer kill a sleeping guy and his wife - 28/05/2010 12:45:14 PM 1036 Views
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You always twist the quotes to make them say what Jordan didn't intend to say.... - 28/05/2010 02:20:09 PM 1103 Views
I think this is your interpretation - 28/05/2010 02:50:14 PM 1049 Views
Yeah right... - 27/05/2010 08:35:35 PM 1140 Views
See my replies above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:40:42 AM 932 Views
Re: Bah, hogwash! - 28/05/2010 08:28:16 AM 931 Views
See my repy to DomA. *NM* - 28/05/2010 08:39:15 AM 902 Views
None of this explains how Slayer had opportunity that others didn't - 27/05/2010 05:12:48 PM 1242 Views
We often see... - 27/05/2010 05:33:19 PM 1107 Views
I just keep coming back to Slayer needs wild explanations while Graendal is more obvious - 27/05/2010 05:52:13 PM 1188 Views
Ok, as we said in the other thread, let's RAFO! *NM* - 27/05/2010 05:57:49 PM 1200 Views
Agreed *NM* - 27/05/2010 06:03:51 PM 667 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 08:39:14 AM 1043 Views
Well... - 28/05/2010 10:19:46 AM 1101 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 12:20:15 PM 1107 Views
I adressed the points regarding the Fain-comparsion above - 28/05/2010 12:35:08 PM 1046 Views
your Slayer theory is ridiculously complex! - 28/05/2010 12:37:08 PM 1094 Views
It just requires to combine some clues from the first 5 books & some common sense - 28/05/2010 12:44:10 PM 1037 Views
common sense? - 28/05/2010 12:51:25 PM 1052 Views
See my posts above. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:50:56 PM 1069 Views
Re: Well... - 28/05/2010 02:27:40 PM 1209 Views
No... - 28/05/2010 03:04:41 PM 1130 Views
let's try this another way - 28/05/2010 03:14:07 PM 1122 Views
The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 05:31:09 PM 1043 Views
Graendal has a pretty significant role in TFoH - 28/05/2010 06:54:39 PM 1055 Views
Re: The main problem with Graendal is... - 28/05/2010 09:20:27 PM 1184 Views
my first thought was it was Sammael or Graendal. Come LoC it was clear to me that it was Graendal. - 28/05/2010 09:44:38 PM 1223 Views
RJ used the expression... - 29/05/2010 08:17:08 AM 1024 Views
be careful ... your stretching far enough you might hurt yourself - 29/05/2010 01:12:29 PM 1129 Views
Re: No... - 28/05/2010 03:38:49 PM 1002 Views
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Couple of questions - 27/05/2010 09:53:05 PM 1104 Views
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Re: Hmmm - 27/05/2010 10:34:30 PM 971 Views
I don't think you can actually cut BF weaves - 27/05/2010 10:45:34 PM 988 Views
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I think it would be impossible for someone to react that quickly - 27/05/2010 11:13:01 PM 1144 Views
We've seen it done. - 28/05/2010 06:32:08 PM 989 Views
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Re: Couple of questions - 28/05/2010 03:29:29 PM 1137 Views
As said... - 28/05/2010 08:36:28 AM 1083 Views
Of course you do. Trying to deny it is just silly. Everyone knows your bias. *NM* - 27/05/2010 08:43:18 PM 556 Views
No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 27/05/2010 09:08:48 PM 1095 Views
Re: No, seriously, if actually Graendal did it, it's ok to me, too - 28/05/2010 08:25:46 AM 1077 Views
But look... - 28/05/2010 09:01:12 AM 1103 Views
if there are clues in TFoH I find it hard to believe that Slayer is involved - 28/05/2010 12:29:40 PM 1002 Views
The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:32:13 PM 1064 Views
Re: The scene of Asmo's murder contains clues, of course - 28/05/2010 12:35:22 PM 1070 Views
RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:40:23 PM 1128 Views
Re: RJ said the main clues are in the books before LoC. *NM* - 28/05/2010 12:52:30 PM 988 Views
Yeah, I know. *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:51:32 PM 1053 Views
??? - 28/05/2010 02:19:17 PM 1037 Views
Of course RJ implied that. You should read his quotes about Asmo! *NM* - 28/05/2010 02:52:32 PM 1060 Views
Here is what RJ said EDIT - 28/05/2010 03:29:19 PM 835 Views
Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:18:35 PM 999 Views
Re: Indeed - 28/05/2010 05:26:38 PM 962 Views
LOL!! - 28/05/2010 03:29:35 PM 803 Views
Too much? - 28/05/2010 05:16:44 PM 1060 Views
Re: Far-fetched, IMO - 02/06/2010 07:34:58 PM 1181 Views
Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? *NM* - 02/06/2010 11:13:04 PM 676 Views
Re: Sent by whom? And how on earth would he be expected to interrupt a Forsaken plot? - 19/06/2010 12:59:54 AM 884 Views
Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 19/06/2010 03:30:37 AM 1087 Views
Re: Slayer takes orders from the Forsaken - 24/06/2010 09:03:18 AM 1292 Views
The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 26/06/2010 02:32:26 PM 798 Views
Re: The orders to not kill Rand didn't happen until the next book - 01/07/2010 10:13:53 PM 1217 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 06:19:18 PM 1014 Views
Re: An analysis of Asmodean's last seconds - 27/05/2010 09:16:21 PM 1024 Views
Lanfear killed Asmo..... - 28/05/2010 05:05:55 AM 981 Views
Doesn't make sense - 28/05/2010 11:09:14 AM 1027 Views
Sorry, Lanfear did it..... - 29/05/2010 03:47:44 AM 958 Views
Death is Moridin "when death took him"; need I say more *NM* - 28/05/2010 10:07:14 AM 677 Views
There is a quote that refutes this... - 28/05/2010 10:22:12 AM 1068 Views
I think I found an RJ quote that kills the Slayer theory - 29/05/2010 01:57:20 PM 972 Views
If Slayer is actually the killer... - 29/05/2010 02:20:32 PM 1048 Views
Please, RJ would do as he always had and immediately RAFOd a question like that - 29/05/2010 02:26:10 PM 1013 Views
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yet he never gave an answer like this one - 29/05/2010 02:57:35 PM 1107 Views
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Taking things NO - 29/05/2010 03:12:24 PM 1073 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:44:05 AM 909 Views
If Slayer never met Asmo in the books he could not have killed him - 06/06/2010 12:46:40 PM 906 Views
But Slayer could have met Asmo, when he was killed.. *NM* - 06/06/2010 01:06:01 PM 963 Views
Directly contradicts what RJ said "they did not meet in the books" - 06/06/2010 02:51:50 PM 918 Views
Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 06:03:34 PM 963 Views
Re: Not "before" the murder. *NM* - 06/06/2010 10:25:16 PM 918 Views
He answers the question, if they met "before" the murder. *NM* - 07/06/2010 07:18:50 AM 666 Views
not if it didn't happen in the books - 07/06/2010 12:08:34 PM 855 Views
I'm relieved then... - 07/06/2010 12:13:58 PM 862 Views
it's nearly as simplistic as knowing Graendal did it - 07/06/2010 12:48:42 PM 996 Views
Compilation of the clues I could find on Slayer and Graendal - 29/05/2010 04:26:58 PM 1095 Views
I think Asmo's killer was as surprised as he. - 29/05/2010 09:26:03 PM 1037 Views
That's what I've always thought as well. - 29/05/2010 10:06:56 PM 962 Views
That's always been my theory too - 29/05/2010 10:18:30 PM 1062 Views
*nods* - 29/05/2010 11:23:18 PM 1080 Views
Re: That's always been my theory too - 30/05/2010 07:35:50 AM 995 Views
You know, there's no direct proof suggesting that Asmo's killer was "surprised"..... - 01/06/2010 04:04:56 AM 946 Views
That's why I said "I think" and offered my opinion. - 01/06/2010 09:46:09 PM 995 Views
except the Author said it was a murder of opportunity - 01/06/2010 11:13:14 PM 981 Views
That is simply false. - 02/06/2010 10:00:27 AM 1043 Views
RJ stated it was a murder of opportunity ... I never said "only" - 02/06/2010 11:49:23 AM 1093 Views
Of course, it is false - 02/06/2010 12:13:11 PM 1011 Views
Here are the quotes - 02/06/2010 12:39:29 PM 940 Views
As said, those quotes simply don't support that the murder was basically just an unplanned accident. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:14:29 PM 663 Views
I disagree. It's pretty much black and white that the opportunity/timing is the key factor to - 02/06/2010 02:39:03 PM 870 Views
Actually I like it because it fits Slayer better than Graendal, as pointed out. *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:51:24 PM 517 Views
that makes no sense at all *NM* - 02/06/2010 02:53:28 PM 716 Views
RJ pretty much said it wasn't Slayer. - 06/06/2010 05:47:13 AM 1042 Views
Well... - 06/06/2010 10:46:13 AM 1037 Views
Logic - 06/06/2010 02:53:27 PM 994 Views
You're falling into Etzelian logic there... - 06/06/2010 03:25:30 PM 990 Views
I'm just being a smartass *NM* - 06/06/2010 03:36:00 PM 688 Views
It's good that Etzel sticks to his guns - 06/06/2010 04:42:01 PM 1099 Views
OMG, Taim and Mesaana were getting it on in the pantry - 06/06/2010 09:49:57 PM 960 Views
That reminds me... - 19/06/2010 04:46:58 AM 986 Views
That's not anyone's logic, this argument is simply utter nonsense. *NM* - 07/06/2010 12:08:05 PM 1026 Views
just like thinking Slayer was the killer is - 07/06/2010 12:09:34 PM 976 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 12:21:31 PM 1067 Views
thinking the top assassin killed someone when it's been stated over and over - 07/06/2010 12:56:48 PM 1017 Views
Those quotes pretty much show that Graendal is careful... *NM* - 07/06/2010 01:03:26 PM 972 Views
No they show that she is deliberate! - 07/06/2010 01:12:29 PM 1050 Views
That are just semantics - 07/06/2010 01:36:12 PM 1122 Views
and you think it's obvious that Slayer was the premier Shadow assassin prior to WH? - 07/06/2010 02:06:47 PM 1008 Views
As I explained you several times, I can see why RJ thought it is obvious, yes... - 07/06/2010 02:17:01 PM 973 Views
Why wouldn't Graendal head to Caemlyn at that point? - 07/06/2010 02:36:24 PM 1052 Views
And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 02:54:33 PM 1102 Views
Re: And where was she then, when Rand attacked Rahvin? - 07/06/2010 03:01:14 PM 1063 Views
You should re-read the scene where Moghedien tells Nynaeve about it... - 07/06/2010 03:12:55 PM 1049 Views
That's a different thing than Moghedien saying the plan was canceled - 07/06/2010 03:15:32 PM 1128 Views
That is essentially what Moghedien said. - 07/06/2010 03:33:35 PM 892 Views
um no it's not - 07/06/2010 04:17:04 PM 979 Views
It's told after that... - 07/06/2010 04:46:31 PM 944 Views
No it doesn't. It tells us that Rahvin, just like all the others had a side plan in place - 07/06/2010 04:55:43 PM 1093 Views
Yeah... - 07/06/2010 05:17:59 PM 1021 Views
Funny I feel the same way you do ... - 07/06/2010 05:25:48 PM 1018 Views
Ah, whatever... - 07/06/2010 05:35:22 PM 917 Views
We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:42:48 PM 990 Views
Re: We are on the exact same page - 07/06/2010 05:52:37 PM 1067 Views
LMAO - 07/06/2010 06:07:16 PM 1449 Views
I promised Etzel long ago... - 19/06/2010 04:49:11 AM 999 Views

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