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I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 01/06/2010 12:44:20 PM

You're not logical there. What do you think she'd know best: how strong someone has to be to operate the Bowl or how strong Nynaeve is? Why would she wonder if maybe Nynaeve could operate it on her own unless she wasn't more than guessing how strong exactly the operator needed to be? She certainly wasn't guessing about Nynaeve's strength...

Actually I think Elayne's lack of education makes her uncertain between ultimate strength and current strength. Like with Talaan neither she nor Nynaeve seemed sure how strong Talaan was currently.

Nynaeve is significantly stronger than Elayne. It's perfectly well established, I'm not sure why you're making an issue out of it again. I get the idea of shifting away from the Asmodean issue, but you've picked another dead horse...

Brandon wasn't confused about Nyaneve (he was about Cyndane). On the older list that didn't yet include Sharina, Alivia etc., Brandon said Nynaeve stood alone at the top, significantly higher than Elayne and Egwene.

Where exactly have I said differently? My argument is about Egwene/Elayne being closer to Nynaeve in strength than they are to other AS. The gap between Moiraine-level and Egwene is a lot larger than the gap between Elayne and Nynaeve.

Again, there's two logical flaws in your reasonning:

1) You are assuming that Nynaeve would use her full strength to lift Rand and Lan? Why assume this? We don't know the size of her well - it may not even be big enough to handle her full strength. There was saidar enough in it to weave air to lift the pair, but not enough to do it twice, to bring them down. What does this tell us about Nynaeve's strength or the weight she can lift? Not much at all! Her limit is somewhere beyond Lan and Rand, but we have no idea what it is. As I said earlier, the well makes the scene impossible to use for that kind of comparisons. You're also forgetting about Nynaeve's sskill in handling Air vs. Egwene's and Elayne's (with the Windfinder, Elayne has trained to handle huge quantity of Air). There's more about lifting stuff than just raw strength. There's aptitude for Air too.

Actually, there is a huge flaw in my thoughts ... Nynaeve had her angreal at this time and should have easily been able to lift the two men ... clearly something else is going on here!

As for aptitude, I think this is a very thin argument. Air is clearly an area Nynaeve has a lot of skill and aptitude with since it's one of the flows involved with both Listening to the Wind and Healing! If anything Nynaeve would have greater aptitude with Air ... we know Egwene has unusual strength in Earth, and it's been hinted that Elayne has unusual strength in Fire, but neither of them is any better with Air than Nynaeve.

2) In TGS Nynaeve wasn't commenting about her strength, she was commenting about the fact the Guardian doesn't interfere in any way with weaving the Power. It blocks the Source and a gizmo can triangulate the location of someone who channels, that's all. Standing outside the perimeter with the CK, Rand could have balefired Far Madding any time. It's implied by Cadsuane (or Verin?) Raolin Darksbane used the OP against the city from outside the perimeter once.

Agreed, what I'm saying is that Nynaeve's comment just highlights that once she had access to saidar in Far Madding that she could Channel normally.

Their achievements had not much if anything to do with strength, beyond the fact they were strong enough to make those weaves... Many much weaker AS can too. Some Yellows much weaker than Nynaeve can do her healing too.

Very weak AS could make amazing discoveries. A lot of weaves aren't about strength but finesse and dexterity, or special skills. Leane was the second best after Egwene at making Cuendillar, and she's quite weak.

Their discoveries (not the Moghedien ones) have to do with skill/Talent, intelligence/creativity and the fact the "dangers of trying out stuff" has not been indoctrinated into them yet when they left the Tower. Another factor is that Moghedien showed them a hint of a much vaster world of channelling waiting to be rediscovered, and this stimulated them.

I agree that their discoveries are more related to brains/nerve etc as you point out. What I was talking about was their Strength achievements ... we've not seen an Elayne level channeler be unable to perform a weave or not have enough strength to accomplish some task etc. If they were very much closer to Moiraine they should be unable to do a few things the Forsaken were able to do.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Height? Why height? Theories about height vs. strength don't really work. It appears to be a coincidence that Rand and Lanfear are so tall.

Sammael was quite strong in the power, and yet he was really short.

Alivia is very strong for a woman yet short (barely taller than Nynaeve). Nynaeve is quite short. Moiraine used to be one of the strongest Aes Sedai, yet unless there's dwarf AS, she was probably one of the smallest sisters alive. Leane and Siuan's strengths were comparable, yet Leane is much taller.

Both Aliva and Nynaeve stand at the base of the top tier of AOL channellers (at least if the legend that the 13 surviving Forsaken were among the strongest people of their Age is more than a legend). They're not quite Mierins, but they're way above the median.

The Namelles were very tall, yet quite weak.

Balthamel went from a tall/muscled male body to a much frailer female body and can still channel the same volume of saidin...

Cyndane is short, yet still formidably strong for a woman.

There's no apparent corrolation between physical body and OP strength.

You are misunderstanding my comparison. I obviously wasn't very clear with what I was getting at ...

I meant to point out that Nynaeve being around 20% stronger than Elayne was "significant" ... using an example of "if Elayne was 12' tall" a 20% increase on her would make Nynaeve would be 14'5" tall and a Sister like Merise would be around 6' tall, and Daigian being 3" Tall ... nothing to do with actual height in relation to OP strength.

Ultimately what we know:

Daigian is about half as strong as Merise (based on Siuan being less than half her old strength, and still being stronger than Daigian).

Merise is about half as strong as Egwene (who is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined)

Semighage is about the same as Nynaeve, and could be held by 3 unremarkable Sisters and Casdsuane notes that this was "taking no precautions". If the Forsaken were 2x Egwene it would take more Sisters to hold Semirhage (especially considering one of them was Daigian).

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!

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Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 02:17:06 PM 1214 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha DomA - 31/05/2010 04:18:08 PM 799 Views

I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl. darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 07:51:08 PM 681 Views

Egwene plus Aviendha roughly equal Lanfaer. And yet Lanfear isn't close to double Nynaeve's strength Shannow - 31/05/2010 09:07:06 PM 580 Views

Egwene and Aviendha combined in TFoH (when Avi had been channeling for only a few months) darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 09:22:17 PM 695 Views

We've done this so many times. Even I have lost the strength for it. What can I still muster... Shannow - 31/05/2010 09:38:24 PM 637 Views

again with the interpretive quoting darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 11:05:58 PM 674 Views

Individual interpretation is all we've got really

Sidious - 01/06/2010 06:32:05 PM 618 Views

agreed, sort of

darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 12:57:00 PM 623 Views

Consider this... Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:21:43 PM 597 Views

You continue to translate things. That is NOT how the quote reads darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 01:30:43 PM 389 Views

Not my fault if the books prove you wrong Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:41:00 PM 521 Views

I'm denying that you have a clue darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 01:51:14 PM 565 Views

Bonfire next to a candle. I rest my case. Shannow - 04/06/2010 01:53:59 PM 442 Views

then Nynaeve is the Creator darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 02:03:27 PM 555 Views

Estimating potential is exact, fragmentary historical notes are not. And RJ disproves your point.. Shannow - 04/06/2010 02:57:32 PM 655 Views

The books disagree with this darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 03:24:46 PM 488 Views

Right, NOW we're getting somewhere... Shannow - 04/06/2010 03:57:32 PM 601 Views

You are hilarious darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 04:06:37 PM 400 Views

Close the door on your way out... Shannow - 04/06/2010 04:21:11 PM 435 Views

no I just refuse to bother with a jackass who doesn't know the text well enough to debate *NM* darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 10:35:09 PM 268 Views

Re: agreed, sort of

Sidious - 04/06/2010 04:46:59 PM 1285 Views

Reminds me of some of our ancient debates... Shannow - 04/06/2010 05:03:05 PM 535 Views

this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 10:33:04 PM 650 Views

Re: this doesn't square in any way with Bell Curve though Sidious - 04/06/2010 10:56:01 PM 545 Views

It's all good, I do respect your thoughts on this BTW darius_sedai - 04/06/2010 11:28:45 PM 500 Views

No, Rand was not stronger than the male Forsaken at the start of tSR... Shannow - 01/06/2010 09:27:47 AM 538 Views

Aginor burned out attempting to use the Eye, which Rand managed to do without burning out *NM* darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:06:01 PM 298 Views

The Eye was just a source of the Power - like a well, just bigger. Shannow - 01/06/2010 12:17:29 PM 562 Views

nope darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:52:46 PM 568 Views

You know that is not correct... Shannow - 01/06/2010 01:30:35 PM 598 Views

right or wrong it's in the text! darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 01:47:35 PM 672 Views

Re: I don't know. Elayne knows how strong a woman needs to be in order to activate the Bowl. DomA - 01/06/2010 02:18:38 AM 657 Views

I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:44:20 PM 711 Views

If 3 sisters can hold you, it probaly means you are as strong as 4 sisters... Shannow - 01/06/2010 06:37:01 PM 462 Views

Re: I'm not trying to say that Nynaeve isn't significantly stronger Sidious - 01/06/2010 06:43:08 PM 468 Views

Sidenote: What's with Elayne dumping people into the river? beetnemesis - 31/05/2010 06:22:26 PM 490 Views

Not Elayne, Egwene in Cairhien. She went to meet the Windfinder and got kicked out. Wasn't awesome *NM* Lordling - 31/05/2010 07:13:25 PM 377 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha Skeeve the Great - 31/05/2010 07:21:32 PM 530 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 07:41:02 PM 502 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha Skeeve the Great - 01/06/2010 06:07:35 PM 440 Views

Re: Interesting clues to OP Strength difference between Nynaeve and Elayne/Egwene/Aviendha darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 06:21:29 PM 451 Views

Remember gatways Kieran - 31/05/2010 09:15:31 PM 504 Views

I agree that it's probably some kind of max height you can lift an object darius_sedai - 31/05/2010 09:25:25 PM 483 Views

I think lifting people on flows of air is much like weaving bridges. FanEditor10 - 01/06/2010 07:42:59 AM 645 Views

I think you are correct actually. darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:53:21 PM 680 Views

Yes. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/06/2010 08:43:33 PM 430 Views

My own thougth was off base! darius_sedai - 01/06/2010 12:54:19 PM 505 Views

I'm pretty convinced that 'strength' really refers to your skill and experience. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 01/06/2010 08:35:16 PM 596 Views

Strength is a touchy word in this case... FanEditor10 - 03/06/2010 07:31:19 AM 574 Views

Re: Strength is a touchy word in this case... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/06/2010 04:52:33 PM 411 Views

I see effectiveness much the same darius_sedai - 05/06/2010 05:17:57 PM 719 Views

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<quote id="113096">
<quote>
You're not logical there. What do you think she'd know best: how strong someone has to be to operate the Bowl or how strong Nynaeve is?  Why would she wonder if maybe Nynaeve could operate it on her own unless she wasn't more than guessing how strong exactly the operator needed to be? She certainly wasn't guessing about Nynaeve's strength...</quote>

Actually I think Elayne's lack of education makes her uncertain between ultimate strength and current strength.  Like with Talaan neither she nor Nynaeve seemed sure how strong Talaan was currently.

<quote>Nynaeve is significantly stronger than Elayne.  It's perfectly well established, I'm not sure why you're making an issue out of it again.  I get the idea of shifting away from the Asmodean issue, but you've picked another dead horse...

Brandon wasn't confused about Nyaneve (he was about Cyndane). On the older list that didn't yet include Sharina, Alivia etc., Brandon said Nynaeve stood alone at the top, significantly higher than Elayne and Egwene.</quote>

Where exactly have I said differently?  My argument is about Egwene/Elayne being closer to Nynaeve in strength than they are to other AS.  The gap between Moiraine-level and Egwene is a lot larger than the gap between Elayne and Nynaeve.

<quote>Again, there's two logical flaws in your reasonning:

1) You are assuming that Nynaeve would use her full strength to lift Rand and Lan?  Why assume this?  We don't know the size of her well - it may not even be big enough to handle her full strength. There was saidar enough in it to weave air to lift the pair, but not enough to do it twice, to bring them down.  What does this tell us about Nynaeve's strength or the weight she can lift?  Not much at all!  Her limit is somewhere beyond Lan and Rand, but we have no idea what it is.  As I said earlier, the well makes the scene impossible to use for that kind of comparisons.  You're also forgetting about Nynaeve's sskill in handling Air vs. Egwene's and Elayne's (with the Windfinder, Elayne has trained to handle huge quantity of Air).  There's more about lifting stuff than just raw strength. There's aptitude for Air too.</quote>

Actually, there <b>is</b> a huge flaw in my thoughts ... Nynaeve had her angreal at this time and should have easily been able to lift the two men ... clearly something else is going on here! :)

As for aptitude, I think this is a very thin argument.  Air is clearly an area Nynaeve has a lot of skill and aptitude with since it's one of the flows involved with both Listening to the Wind and Healing!  If anything Nynaeve would have greater aptitude with Air ... we know Egwene has unusual strength in Earth, and it's been hinted that Elayne has unusual strength in Fire, but neither of them is any better with Air than Nynaeve.

<quote>2) In TGS Nynaeve wasn't commenting about her strength, she was commenting about the fact the Guardian doesn't interfere in any way with weaving the Power. It blocks the Source and a gizmo can triangulate the location of someone who channels, that's all. Standing outside the perimeter with the CK, Rand could have balefired Far Madding any time.  It's implied by Cadsuane (or Verin?) Raolin Darksbane used the OP against the city from outside the perimeter once. </quote>

Agreed, what I'm saying is that Nynaeve's comment just highlights that once she had access to saidar in Far Madding that she could Channel normally.

<quote>Their achievements had not much if anything to do with strength, beyond the fact they were strong enough to make those weaves... Many much weaker AS can too.  Some Yellows much weaker than Nynaeve can do her healing too.

Very weak AS could make amazing discoveries.  A lot of weaves aren't about strength but finesse and dexterity, or special skills.  Leane was the second best after Egwene at making Cuendillar, and she's quite weak.

Their discoveries (not the Moghedien ones) have to do with skill/Talent, intelligence/creativity and the fact the "dangers of trying out stuff" has not been indoctrinated into them yet when they left the Tower.  Another factor is that Moghedien showed them a hint of a much vaster world of channelling waiting to be rediscovered, and this stimulated them.</quote>

I agree that their discoveries are more related to brains/nerve etc as you point out.  What I was talking about was their Strength achievements ... we've not seen an Elayne level channeler be unable to perform a weave or not have enough strength to accomplish some task etc.  If they were very much closer to Moiraine they should be unable to do a few things the Forsaken were able to do.

<quote>I'm not sure what you're talking about. Height? Why height?  Theories about height vs. strength don't really work.  It appears to be a coincidence that Rand and Lanfear are so tall.

Sammael was quite strong in the power, and yet he was really short.

Alivia is very strong for a woman yet short (barely taller than Nynaeve). Nynaeve is quite short. Moiraine used to be one of the strongest Aes Sedai, yet unless there's dwarf AS, she was probably one of the smallest sisters alive. Leane and Siuan's strengths were comparable, yet Leane is much taller.

Both Aliva and Nynaeve stand at the base of the top tier of AOL channellers (at least if the legend that the 13 surviving Forsaken were among the strongest people of their Age is more than a legend). They're not quite Mierins, but they're way above the median.

The Namelles were very tall, yet quite weak.

Balthamel went from a tall/muscled male body to a much frailer female body and can still channel the same volume of saidin...

Cyndane is short, yet still formidably strong for a woman.

There's no apparent corrolation between physical body and OP strength.</quote>

You are misunderstanding my comparison.  I obviously wasn't very clear with what I was getting at ...

I meant to point out that Nynaeve being around 20% stronger than Elayne was "significant" ... using an example of "if Elayne was 12' tall" a 20% increase on her would make Nynaeve would be 14'5" tall and a Sister like Merise would be around 6' tall, and Daigian being 3" Tall ... nothing to do with actual height in relation to OP strength.

Ultimately what we know:

Daigian is about half as strong as Merise (based on Siuan being less than half her old strength, and still being stronger than Daigian).

Merise is about half as strong as Egwene (who is stronger than Amys and Melaine combined)

Semighage is about the same as Nynaeve, and could be held by 3 unremarkable Sisters and Casdsuane notes that this was "taking no precautions".  If the Forsaken were 2x Egwene it would take more Sisters to hold Semirhage (especially considering one of them was Daigian).
</quote>

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