Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
Shishka Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
Let me preface this by saying this is all just opinion. I don't think there is any evidence that proves it conclusively.
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
Help me out with a TAR problem
26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM
- 1378 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem
26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM
- 807 Views
No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM
- 822 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM
- 697 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM
- 598 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM
- 551 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM
- 542 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too
26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM
- 632 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM
- 548 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
26/05/2010 11:50:56 PM
- 516 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 12:06:55 AM
- 539 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 12:21:53 AM
- 576 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 02:58:36 PM
- 584 Views
I disagree
27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM
- 555 Views
Re: I disagree
27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM
- 601 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM
- 650 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM
- 744 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here
27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM
- 583 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop.
27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM
- 571 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR
27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM
- 513 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself
27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM
- 697 Views
I don't agree.
27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM
- 577 Views
you are misreading me I think
27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM
- 711 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think
27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM
- 625 Views
That's the point.
27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM
- 597 Views
Re: That's the point.
27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM
- 564 Views
Re: That's the point.
27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM
- 559 Views
Interesting idea.
26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM
- 524 Views
There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies
26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM
- 599 Views
we've seen this fail
26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM
- 535 Views
So I think this disproves it
26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM
- 811 Views
Is that really true?
26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM
- 599 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM*
26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM
- 288 Views
I would generally agree with your edits
26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM
- 554 Views
yes and no
26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM
- 473 Views
Re: yes and no
26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM
- 511 Views
5+ entries for "Book 4-6 Thing " now... Funny that we wrote slight variations simultaneously
26/05/2010 10:24:03 PM
- 511 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte
26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM
- 563 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit?
26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM
- 532 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh.
26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM
- 650 Views
I think this is possible.
26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM
- 578 Views
Dream gateway!
27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM
- 517 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form
27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM
- 507 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind
27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM
- 505 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R
27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM
- 491 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before...
27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM
- 603 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit.
27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM
- 607 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world.
27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM
- 595 Views
Yes, I agree with that, but I was mostly just replying to your question about sleep-channeling.
27/05/2010 06:56:18 AM
- 511 Views
The only real situation we have to compare...
27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM
- 502 Views
That's a weird situation.
27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM
- 559 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious'
27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM
- 566 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare...
27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM
- 609 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after...
27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM
- 550 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after...
28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM
- 612 Views
Actually I don't think so..
28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM
- 513 Views
Plus, their ability to affect reality comes from the magic of the Horn of Valere.
28/05/2010 06:14:21 PM
- 445 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it.
27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM
- 719 Views
Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
- 694 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR...
29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM
- 574 Views