Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
Shishka Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
Let me preface this by saying this is all just opinion. I don't think there is any evidence that proves it conclusively.
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Here's a quote from RJ:
Q: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.
As I understand it, anything that exists in the Real World and is reflected in TAR (whether it's a door knob, pickle, or someone who has dreamt himself there) is, in effect, insubstantial in TAR. That is, there is nothing substantial to be brought out, because TAR is simply reflecting their substantial Real World existence.
Could the TAR dreamer make a Gateway to the Real World? Maybe. But he couldn't step out into the Real World through it. Nor could someone else create a Gateway to TAR, and take the TAR dreamer out with him.
I think the only substantial things that can be brought out of TAR are substantial things brought into TAR by people who enter in the flesh (RJ's quote above doesn't apply to this situation - if it did, people who entered TAR in the flesh fully clothed would come out naked). So, if Rand stuck a door knob and a pickle in his pockets, and entered TAR in the flesh, he could leave those items there, and later go back and bring them out again. Because while in TAR, that's where those items EXIST - they're not reflections, in that case.
But a TAR dreamer doesn't exist in TAR, he exists in the Real World. What's in TAR is just a reflection of what exists in the Real World. Yes, that reflection can construct what he looks like, channel, and do other cool things in TAR, but he cannot create flesh for himself by leaving through a Gateway, regardless who made the Gateway. He can only return to his body in the Real World.
Regarding what Moggy did to Birgitte ... Birgitte's soul EXISTED in TAR (she wasn't simply reflected there, like a TAR dreamer), so Moggy was able to yank her out, and somehow that act created flesh for Birgitte. But that's a different situation from a TAR dreamer, IMHO.
My two cents ...
Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
'cause all life is
is really just a circle.
-BHT&tM
Help me out with a TAR problem
26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM
- 1444 Views
Re: Help me out with a TAR problem
26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM
- 879 Views
No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM
- 897 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM
- 764 Views
Re: No I don't mean that
26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM
- 674 Views
I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM
- 624 Views
Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking
26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM
- 605 Views
And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too
26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM
- 703 Views
I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM
- 628 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
26/05/2010 11:50:56 PM
- 591 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 12:06:55 AM
- 617 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 12:21:53 AM
- 647 Views
Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that.
27/05/2010 02:58:36 PM
- 660 Views
I disagree
27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM
- 625 Views
Re: I disagree
27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM
- 676 Views
If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM
- 718 Views
Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off
27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM
- 816 Views
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here
27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM
- 649 Views
We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop.
27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM
- 646 Views
But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR
27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM
- 593 Views
The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself
27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM
- 777 Views
I don't agree.
27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM
- 650 Views
you are misreading me I think
27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM
- 795 Views
Re: you are misreading me I think
27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM
- 694 Views
That's the point.
27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM
- 677 Views
Re: That's the point.
27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM
- 639 Views
Re: That's the point.
27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM
- 636 Views
Interesting idea.
26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM
- 597 Views
There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies
26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM
- 660 Views
we've seen this fail
26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM
- 603 Views
So I think this disproves it
26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM
- 887 Views
Is that really true?
26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM
- 669 Views
Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM*
26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM
- 314 Views
I would generally agree with your edits
26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM
- 632 Views
yes and no
26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM
- 551 Views
Re: yes and no
26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM
- 584 Views
5+ entries for "Book 4-6 Thing " now... Funny that we wrote slight variations simultaneously
26/05/2010 10:24:03 PM
- 579 Views
well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte
26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM
- 639 Views
Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit?
26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM
- 604 Views
You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh.
26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM
- 695 Views
I think this is possible.
26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM
- 650 Views
Dream gateway!
27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM
- 595 Views
I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form
27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM
- 575 Views
if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind
27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM
- 551 Views
if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R
27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM
- 567 Views
I don't think anybody has said this before...
27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM
- 680 Views
Your real body can only channel Spirit.
27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM
- 684 Views
Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world.
27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM
- 664 Views
Yes, I agree with that, but I was mostly just replying to your question about sleep-channeling.
27/05/2010 06:56:18 AM
- 584 Views
The only real situation we have to compare...
27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM
- 577 Views
That's a weird situation.
27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM
- 634 Views
Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious'
27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM
- 640 Views
Re: The only real situation we have to compare...
27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM
- 675 Views
If something that didn't exist before existed after...
27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM
- 619 Views
Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after...
28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM
- 692 Views
Actually I don't think so..
28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM
- 582 Views
Plus, their ability to affect reality comes from the magic of the Horn of Valere.
28/05/2010 06:14:21 PM
- 516 Views
TAR constructs cannot leave it.
27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM
- 794 Views
Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ...
27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM
- 738 Views
I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR...
29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM
- 640 Views