Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. by Datakim

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Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. Datakim Send a noteboard - 27/05/2010 12:21:53 AM

For whatever reason, Moghedien never commanded Myrdraal in any of her schemes, so it is possible that she didn't have any under her direct control due to her tactics.

The reason I brought up the Myrddraal is that apparently they have to obey the forsaken.

Rj said this:

Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

RJ confirms that the Forsaken carry a mark from the DO that causes shadowspawn to obey them. So if Moghedien managed to get a myrddraal near, it would obey her despite the collar around her neck.

Also, the Myrdraal still would not know what to do to release the a'dam. It is a rather precise technique, remember? Moghedien didn't know how to do it, and she would need to tell a Myrdraal precisely how to manipulate the collar.

Yes and no. It is true that releasing the a'dam is tricky, but it is certainly not impossible. Lots of people in the series have figured out how to release the thing after fiddling with it for a while. Myrddraal, unlike trollocs, are intelligent enough that they could likely work on the problem themselves and release Moghedien without any instructions. Yes, they would need time to experiment but given that time I think they could do it.

Finally, how would she get the message to them? It seemed to me that the Forsaken don't have a mystical connection to the Shadowspawn they commanded - they literally had to give a command and/or order the Shadowspawn to do certain things, which may have meant Travelling to the Blight where they are bred. I doubt Moghedien would want to appear where any one of the Forsaken could be hanging around in her condition. She most likely didn't even want the Dark One to know. Semirhage was in a less precarious position and even then, an agent of the Dark had to be sent to her, possibly because her mission had failed and her situation had been revealed to Shaiadar Haran by Elza.

This is the biggest problem. You are correct that while any shadowspawn would obey Moghedien due to her Forsaken mark, she would actually have to find a way to contact one first.

However if she could enter TAR, this would not be an impossible challenge. First of all, I wonder if myrddraal could be pulled to TAR? They are more humanlike than trollocs so maybe. Is there any mention anywhere of myrddraal dreaming? If this is possible then the problem is solved right here.

However Moghedien must also know about darkfriends, some who are in position to make contact with shadowspawn. She could order one of those human darkfriends to deliver a message to a myrddraal to go to her location. Myrddraal have that shadowjump trick so going to Moghedien once they had the message would not be an issue.

The only problem there is that every Aes Sedai in the camp would sense the presence of the myrddraal which would be a big problem since it would severely limit the time the Myrddraal had to figure out how to release Moghedien.

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Help me out with a TAR problem Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:10:07 PM 1379 Views

Re: Help me out with a TAR problem Datakim - 26/05/2010 08:28:34 PM 808 Views

No I don't mean that Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:37:27 PM 822 Views

Re: No I don't mean that darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 08:39:42 PM 698 Views

Re: No I don't mean that Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:52:22 PM 599 Views

I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 09:26:20 PM 551 Views

Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking Datakim - 26/05/2010 09:49:24 PM 543 Views

And it seems the woman wearing the bracelet has strange dreams too darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 10:54:26 PM 633 Views

Re: I'm inclined to think the a'dam stops Dream Walking HyogaRott - 27/05/2010 06:46:42 PM 538 Views

I think it would be the latter

RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 07:11:17 PM 642 Views

I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/05/2010 11:39:14 PM 548 Views

Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. Datakim - 26/05/2010 11:50:56 PM 517 Views

Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 12:06:55 AM 539 Views

Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. Datakim - 27/05/2010 12:21:53 AM 577 Views

Re: I have a few mundane my reasons as to why Moghedien probably wouldn't and couldn't do that. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 02:58:36 PM 585 Views

I disagree darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 03:21:05 PM 555 Views

Re: I disagree RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 07:08:41 PM 602 Views

If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 07:14:26 PM 651 Views

Re: If she could enter TAR she could drag an AS in with her, compell them and make them take it off RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 09:21:11 PM 744 Views

I think we are saying pretty much the same thing here darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 09:24:37 PM 584 Views

We are close to the same idea, but different in where we think her ability will stop. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 09:37:28 PM 572 Views

*nods* *NM* darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 11:29:10 PM 261 Views

But channelling is not a requirement to enter TAR BlackAdder - 27/05/2010 08:31:21 AM 514 Views

The a'dam affects things in Channelers other than the ability itself darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 01:58:34 PM 697 Views

I don't agree. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 03:02:08 PM 577 Views

you are misreading me I think darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 03:11:50 PM 712 Views

Re: you are misreading me I think RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 06:30:29 PM 625 Views

Re: you are misreading me I think HyogaRott - 27/05/2010 06:42:36 PM 637 Views

That's the point. darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 06:57:35 PM 597 Views

Re: That's the point. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 07:10:25 PM 565 Views

Re: That's the point. darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 07:16:49 PM 560 Views

We may never know! RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 09:21:48 PM 600 Views

I would be very surprised if it came up in the books darius_sedai - 27/05/2010 09:25:29 PM 561 Views

Interesting idea. Datakim - 26/05/2010 09:38:04 PM 525 Views

Fascinating Idea #4 on this thread. Thanks, Sid! *NM* newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 10:31:48 PM 279 Views

Channeler heal thyself Datakim - 26/05/2010 11:40:25 PM 651 Views

There may be a clue to this in the descriptions of astral projection in comics and psychic studies RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/05/2010 11:59:42 PM 600 Views

Re: Help me out with a TAR problem cmoorejr - 26/05/2010 08:35:49 PM 572 Views

Doesn't work entyti - 26/05/2010 08:37:40 PM 782 Views

we've seen this fail darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 08:38:06 PM 536 Views

I don't mean that

Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:39:32 PM 521 Views

I'd say you either die or just wake up if you tried that darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 08:40:31 PM 530 Views

As far as I know... Etzel - 26/05/2010 08:38:36 PM 561 Views

This could work DomA - 26/05/2010 08:43:21 PM 747 Views

Thanks Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:51:17 PM 572 Views

Re: Thanks DomA - 26/05/2010 09:12:10 PM 534 Views

So I think this disproves it newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 08:49:55 PM 812 Views

Is that really true? Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:53:45 PM 600 Views

Sid, I made some edits, but really nothing's certain. Look again, pls. *NM* newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 08:55:30 PM 289 Views

I would generally agree with your edits Sidious - 26/05/2010 08:57:32 PM 555 Views

yes and no darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 09:31:53 PM 474 Views

Re: yes and no Datakim - 26/05/2010 09:55:46 PM 511 Views

5+ entries for "Book 4-6 Thing " now... Funny that we wrote slight variations simultaneously newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 10:24:03 PM 512 Views

well Moghedien somehow managed to create a whole Body for Birgitte darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 10:36:45 PM 564 Views

Could Rahvin turn Rand into a fishman if he was just there in Spirit? newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 10:19:05 PM 533 Views

And I agree with your response newyorkersedai - 26/05/2010 09:49:00 PM 534 Views

You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. krassos - 26/05/2010 10:06:02 PM 651 Views

Re: You have to enter TAR in the Flesh to leave it in the Flesh. darius_sedai - 26/05/2010 10:57:06 PM 525 Views

The short answer to Birgitte krassos - 27/05/2010 02:37:13 AM 528 Views

I think this is possible. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/05/2010 11:28:51 PM 579 Views

Dream gateway! Datakim - 27/05/2010 12:05:31 AM 517 Views

I think the problem is that you can only channel Spirit through your T'A'R form RugbyPlayingAshaman - 27/05/2010 03:05:13 PM 508 Views

if you dream yourself into T'A'R then you're just a creation of your own mind Jim - 27/05/2010 12:02:38 AM 506 Views

aren't we all? *NM* newyorkersedai - 27/05/2010 12:04:08 AM 239 Views

if that was true you couldn't die in T'A'R Foxhead - 27/05/2010 12:08:10 AM 491 Views

Why not? krassos - 27/05/2010 03:41:10 PM 631 Views

if it's just a creation of your mind? Foxhead - 27/05/2010 04:03:29 PM 569 Views

is it possible to Travel in T'A'R when dreaming? Foxhead - 27/05/2010 12:06:57 AM 525 Views

I don't think anybody has said this before... Fanatic-Templar - 27/05/2010 04:01:28 AM 604 Views

Your real body can only channel Spirit. Gher - 27/05/2010 05:25:08 AM 607 Views

Yes, but you need real One Power to affect the real world. Fanatic-Templar - 27/05/2010 06:46:21 AM 596 Views

Yes, I agree with that, but I was mostly just replying to your question about sleep-channeling. Gher - 27/05/2010 06:56:18 AM 512 Views

The only real situation we have to compare... Fanatic-Templar - 27/05/2010 06:59:51 AM 503 Views

That's a weird situation. Gher - 27/05/2010 07:09:21 AM 560 Views

Well, yes. The Birgitte situation can't be compared directly to Sidious' Fanatic-Templar - 27/05/2010 08:01:38 AM 567 Views

Re: The only real situation we have to compare... HyogaRott - 27/05/2010 07:11:45 PM 610 Views

If something that didn't exist before existed after... Fanatic-Templar - 27/05/2010 08:58:55 PM 551 Views

Re: If something that didn't exist before existed after... HyogaRott - 28/05/2010 02:09:01 PM 612 Views

Actually I don't think so.. darius_sedai - 28/05/2010 02:31:27 PM 514 Views

Plus, their ability to affect reality comes from the magic of the Horn of Valere. Fanatic-Templar - 28/05/2010 06:14:21 PM 446 Views

your dream self couldn't exit TAR... Onarishma - 27/05/2010 06:39:26 AM 561 Views

TAR constructs cannot leave it. fionwe1987 - 27/05/2010 04:57:12 PM 720 Views

Not just constructs ... anything reflected in TAR cannot leave it ... Shishka - 27/05/2010 10:05:37 PM 694 Views

Re: Help me out with a TAR problem HyogaRott - 27/05/2010 06:58:18 PM 513 Views

shucks everyone already thought of this... *NM* HyogaRott - 27/05/2010 07:08:50 PM 246 Views

problem solved... sort of? lummox - 28/05/2010 02:48:13 AM 639 Views

I agree with those saying that if you don't physically enter TAR... TaskmasterJack - 29/05/2010 09:32:40 PM 575 Views

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<quote id="111565">
<quote id="111559">For whatever reason, Moghedien never commanded Myrdraal in any of her schemes, so it is possible that she didn't have any under her direct control due to her tactics.
</quote>

The reason I brought up the Myrddraal is that apparently they have to obey the forsaken.

Rj said this:

<quote>
Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.
</quote>

RJ confirms that the Forsaken carry a mark from the DO that causes shadowspawn to obey them. So if Moghedien managed to get a myrddraal near, it would obey her despite the collar around her neck.

<quote>
Also, the Myrdraal still would not know what to do to release the a'dam. It is a rather precise technique, remember? Moghedien didn't know how to do it, and she would need to tell a Myrdraal precisely how to manipulate the collar. 
</quote>

<quote>
Finally, how would she get the message to them? It seemed to me that the Forsaken don't have a mystical connection to the Shadowspawn they commanded - they literally had to give a command and/or order the Shadowspawn to do certain things, which may have meant Travelling to the Blight where they are bred. I doubt Moghedien would want to appear where any one of the Forsaken could be hanging around in her condition. She most likely didn't even want the Dark One to know. Semirhage was in a less precarious position and even then, an agent of the Dark had to be sent to her, possibly because her mission had failed and her situation had been revealed to Shaiadar Haran by Elza.</quote>

This is the biggest problem. You are correct that while any shadowspawn would obey Moghedien due to her Forsaken mark, she would actually have to find a way to contact one first.

However if she could enter TAR, this would not be an impossible challenge. First of all, I wonder if myrddraal could be pulled to TAR? They are more humanlike than trollocs so maybe. Is there any mention anywhere of myrddraal dreaming? If this is possible then the problem is solved right here.

However Moghedien must also know about darkfriends, some who are in position to make contact with shadowspawn. She could order one of those human darkfriends to deliver a message to a myrddraal to go to her location. Myrddraal have that shadowjump trick so going to Moghedien once they had the message would not be an issue.

The only problem there is that every Aes Sedai in the camp would sense the presence of the myrddraal which would be a big problem since it would severely limit the time the Myrddraal had to figure out how to release Moghedien.
</quote>

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