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Well, I replied. Datakim Send a noteboard - 13/05/2010 07:52:18 PM

So in RJ's world, we're repeatedly reminded that the best works - the Sword, the Eye of the World - are made when the two opposing natures acted as one. Saidin and Saidar drive each other, and they also drive the Wheel together. The best things come from acting in unison... And the Wheel itself, because it includes the Dark one, is driven by two opposing halves beyond just Saidin and Saidar.


This is true, it is repeatedly said that the best can be achieved by both powers working together. This is likely a result of both the fact that links between men and women are more balanced and powerfull, and because such links can be taken beyond the 13 only women can do (upto 72) and as such do feats of power far greater than what women can do alone.

Men ofcourse cannot do even that, since they cannot link unaided. It is possible that there are also other more unique things that can only be done by both sides together. The Bowl used to fix weather drew on both sides and I recall that the weaves somehow bent and intertwined to produce the effect.


Thematically, there's a lot of... resonance to what happened at the end of the last novel, TGS. It goes beyond Rand's use of the TP (two sides that comprise the universe work together) and Rand's acceptance of LTT as his other half (two parts of a whole joining together) at the end. In a greater way, this may spell a leap forward-by-going-backward for Rand.


Well, first of all, we don't actually know if TP is a side that makes the universe work. It has always been said that the universe(the wheel) is powered by the two sides of the OP, saidin and saidar. How TP comes into this we don't know. Maybe it does have some role in maintaining the universe, but there is just as much proof for the view that TP is in fact an opposite force of destruction that if released would destroy the universe. Actually, since it has been suggested that the True Power basically IS the DO, and the release of the DO would destroy the pattern, there is probably more proof for the view that TP is not in any way helpfull for the universe.

As for LTT, that joining was indeed necessary since Rand was going completely insane with two distinct personalities of the same soul inside his head. Can't win the last battle with a lunatic dragon reborn.


*SNIP*

Doesn't it make sense that as we enter book 4, Rand is starting to deal with all this, and then we see a new personality in his head? What if it's not even so much the Taint and Rand's nature as a Reborn Individual of Note. What if Rand partly created a new identity in himself in order to deal with his new life and role? Consider also, but separately, the idea that a past personality could fill that gap...


This view is an interesting one I guess. Unfortunately there is nothing to confirm it as a valid one. I personally also think that the taint likely did have a significant part in bringing LTT forth.

Rand did suffer great stress, but I am not completely convinced that that alone was sufficient for him to go MPD. I put more money on the taint that has been repeatedly said to cause insanity in male channelers.


He's put in great danger, he's scared. Then a voice starts appearing in his head. It has new ideas just when he needs them (Lanfear's visit during TSR's Stone attack). This voice isn't exactly like what Rand is going for (LTT thought he's not as hard as Al'Thor). Still, LTT shares a lot with Rand 2 - they work with people well, comfortably talking to Important People about Important Things; they're successful self-starters who give orders; they get to take off their man-stockings around many women; they can live lavish lifestyles; they get power, then wield it fairly and justly; they set the World's Safety as the highest priority...


Too bad the voice in his head is quite insane.


Hell, this is making me wonder a little about when he heard the Creator's voice. Another time when his identity was in disarray and he faced mortal terror...


I dunno, we don't know exactly what this particular voice was, but given that it spoke in CAPITALS JUST LIKE THE DO DOES I figure it was somekind of separate entity like the DO such as the creator. Or perhaps it was DO messing with Rand's mind, he was around the blight which is the DO's domain of power. Regardless, I don't think this particular voice was in any way created by Rand. He had barely touched the taint at this point, and I do not believe that simply being afraid would be sufficient for a voice to just appear in his head, a voice that we never hear from again after it has delivered its message.


That aside, Rand had already been trying a change of direction - Elayne was teaching Rand how to deal with a room full of despots. He'd been molding himself into something different in the time just before he had his first LTT-episode. He was in a maleable state, wasn't he? And Rand deserves credit - he has done a lot, acting 60% of the time like half of an individual, to further something that his whole self needed desperately. Even if I'm saying that Rand *drove himself* crazy, I'm not saying it didn't advance his goals nicely.


I dunno. I think he was doing pretty fine on his own. I don't really see any huge need yet for a separate personality. Remember that his friends who grew up with him also were given power and responsibility in the series. Granted, not as much as Rand, but they still show no signs of mental problems like Rands. They are also both untouched by the taint.

I also find it hard to believe that the pattern after so carefully arranging where Rand was born, who his parents where, where he was raised, how he was raised and all that would have arranged for a champion so weak in will.

Could there have been some weakness somewhere that the taint used? Possibly, but I have trouble accepting your suggestion that Rand developed MPD simply because he was unable to deal with his problems at that point. He was still quite stable at that point in the series.


And isn't it possible that Rand's psyche just split sometime between TDR and TSR? This sort of thing can occur without magical conduits and satanic curses. Isn't it possible that this split itself is what caused LTT to leak through? That LTT's voice is a direct product of Rand's psychological fracture?


We know from Semirhage (presuming she spoke the truth) that in AoL there was a known mental illness where the past life of the soul intruded upon the current life. This happened before the taint so it does not necessarily NEED the taint to occur.

I do believe however that in Rand's case, the taint was the primary cause for his madness. Could his desire for someone to guide him or take some of the burden off him have been a weak point in his mind that the taint attacked to cause LTT? Maybe, but I still hold the taint as my primary suspect and don't believe Rand's mind would have "split" without it.


Now look back at the lightshow in TGS's end: thematically, if Rand has "accepted himself back into himself" (my own term), then he's united two halves to the same goal. This suggests that his best work is about to happen. It took Saidin and Saidar, Servants of All working together, to cleanse the Source.


He did "reintegrate" with LTT, and I suppose LTT being his past life could be said to be part of him. But he was still a separate life of that soul. Basically, I think the lightshow was more about him accepting his past life and the responsibility for the mistakes and bad things he did/caused in that life, rather than some psychological phenomena of Rand accepting himself. He accepted LTT, who was his previous reincarnation.


Amd these thoughts also suggest that this internal union will make it easier for Rand to join together with other "halves" that he needs. I'm talking specifically about the Seanchan & the White Tower.


Presumably having merged with LTT, Rand will be both sane, and possibly possess the full knowledge and wisdom of the far older and more experienced diplomat/administrator that LTT was. In that sense, this merger will certainly make Rand more capable. But I see no need for a more mystical explanation. Rand will do a better job now, because he is both sane and better equipped with the skills and knowhow to do the job.

As for "joining" the Seanchan and the White Tower, I seriously doubt this will happen. I suspect he might be able to arrange a truce or something, which is what he desired in the first place, but having the OP fearing/hating Seanchan actually joining the White Tower? I do not believe there is any chance of that happening anytime soon.


Thinking about all this makes me wonder one more thing:
does Rand need to get the Shadow to work against itself? The DO keeps trying to get The Light to kill itself, doesn't he? His servants focus on it intensely - the Dark does less of its own creation than it subverts what the Light already made. After all, the World Snake does eat its own tail...


When we look at the way the forsaken are acting, we see that Rand has no need to make the shadow work against itself, they are already doing that quite nicely and have been doing it all throughout the series.

As for the DO not creating, that does make sense what with him being the bloke who apparently wants to destroy the creation. Though he is willing to "create" and work towards this particular goal. He created Shaidar Haran for example to rein in the forsaken and try to force them to work together against the light, when before they were almost fighting more between themselves than they were against Rand.

Rand might be able to cause some chaos amongst the shadow ranks through his link with Moridin maybe, but I doubt he will seriously be able to harm the DO or his cause in this particular way.


So wouldn't a Dragon need to first develop an internal balance and then use the tools of the Shadow, as his opposing force, to aid the Light against the DO?

Rand has already tapped the TP. He also used Lanfear (a little) and Asmodean (especially) to teach him to fight the Shadow. Will Rand's next move - his next "great" move - involve him using the Shadow to harm itself? Will it involve all those BA Aes Sedai? Will he have to make the Shadow somehow seal itself? I can't really speculate at what it will be, as I've already speculated enough for one night...


Well, I think Rand channeling the TP was probably a bad idea. I mean it was necessary at the time yes, but it likely helped further his madness and caused many of the other problems in TGS (His ta'veren effect going evil, the dark halo around him, his dark and evil moods and so on). The TP is pretty clearly an evil and corruptive force that even the forsaken are afraid to use. I don't think "balancing" his OP use with TP use would be a good idea. Infact I think it would lead to utter disaster.

That being said, there have been theories that Rand will use TP at the last battle. LTT said that something has to touch the DO in order for the sealing to work. When he placed the seals he touched the DO with saidin, and this was likely the conduit through which the DO tainted saidin. If Rand were to touch the DO with his own power, the DO obviously could not taint it and Rand would succeed. This is a theory that has been argued about quite a bit since TGS came out.

Beyond that possibility I don't really see Rand using the shadow in any way. The BA have likely fled to the blight by now, and the asha'man equivalent will likely be either killed or flee aswell.

You should also remember that there was a city that believed they should use the tactics of the shadow against the shadow. Shadar Logoth.
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Rand's two sides together - is the TGS scene the key to victory? As a man who uses a -sedai handle - 13/05/2010 06:06:14 AM 1177 Views
Completely ignoring your point- Callandor and the Eye both kinda sucked - 13/05/2010 07:53:25 AM 599 Views
So you're writing like a crackhead and ignoring any actual points... - 13/05/2010 02:25:26 PM 559 Views
Re: So you're writing like a crackhead and ignoring any actual points... - 13/05/2010 04:28:27 PM 724 Views
I used a =) and you have an odd sense of manners - 13/05/2010 05:27:55 PM 469 Views
Re: I used a =) and you have an odd sense of manners - 13/05/2010 07:02:43 PM 470 Views
I re-read my reply, and sorry again. W/o the smiley it sounds way harsh. *NM* - 16/05/2010 10:33:58 PM 198 Views
Re: I re-read my reply, and sorry again. W/o the smiley it sounds way harsh. - 19/05/2010 03:59:35 PM 488 Views
surprisingly, i didn't think so - 19/05/2010 05:09:28 PM 446 Views
I think the Eye forced Rand. - 13/05/2010 03:46:53 PM 496 Views
agree sorta. - 13/05/2010 04:08:24 PM 487 Views
Re: agree sorta. - 13/05/2010 04:37:08 PM 477 Views
A lot of Asha'man died from being forced. - 13/05/2010 06:04:25 PM 475 Views
Re: agree sorta. - 13/05/2010 07:41:25 PM 523 Views
Re: agree sorta. - 21/05/2010 03:15:16 AM 433 Views
How do you know that Callandor is flawed? - 13/05/2010 06:11:53 PM 465 Views
Because RJ specifically said so in an interview. *NM* - 13/05/2010 06:15:32 PM 193 Views
Link? *NM* - 15/05/2010 12:11:26 AM 211 Views
Re: Link? - 21/05/2010 03:19:19 AM 437 Views
Well, I replied. - 13/05/2010 07:52:18 PM 595 Views
And thank you for doing so - 16/05/2010 10:53:41 PM 455 Views
Re: And thank you for doing so - 21/05/2010 06:25:25 AM 405 Views
Re: Well, I replied. - 21/05/2010 03:30:28 AM 435 Views
Re: Well, I replied. - 21/05/2010 06:31:13 AM 430 Views

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