Re: cool people change the subject line - Edit 1
Before modification by Terez at 04/05/2010 09:29:48 AM
Basically my point here is that if Gawyn manages surprises Rand, he won't need the medallion at all to kill Rand. The medallion is not required.
I know what your point was, and I already argued against it. For one, there is no need to assume that Gawyn will manage to surprise Rand while he's not holding the Power. For another, Gawyn knows nothing about Rand's issues, so he would probably not try to fight Rand without the medallion.
I guess I am kinda hoping that now that he seems to have merged with the more experienced LTT, he would act smarter in the future and we won't get these kinds of stupid mistakes anymore.
Lews Therin made plenty of mistakes of his own, including his attack on the Bore. It did what it was supposed to, but it was still pretty reckless.
There is really only 2 books left and the next book will be more about Perrin and Mat. Would it really hurt to have atleast a single book where Rand is actually a truly intelligent and competent hero.
That will come after Rand is brought back from the dead, I think. He has to die first. The book will definitely focus mostly on Perrin and Mat, and also Elayne, but I believe that Elayne and Perrin will both be involved in the Battle of Caemlyn, and of course Mat will be at Ghenjei.
You know what I would like? I would like a scene where Gawyn arrives, blames Rand for his Mothers death and challenges Rand to a duel only to have Rand say that he won't be so selfish as to risk the entire world over some stupid duel with an ignorant moron like Gawyn, and then orders the hordes of Aiel with him to capture Gawyn and throw him into a dungeon until the last battle is over.
That lacks certain elements of tragedy that I think RJ is going for. Not everything about the final events of the series will be perfect and Eddings-like.
Elayne knows the truth. He could ask her. I would expect that the word of his sister and queen would still hold atleast some worth to Gawyn. There is also the fact that when Rand invaded, the palace was defended by trollocs. Surely there are still some soldiers Gawyn could question to confirm that.
Elayne does not know the truth any more than Egwene does. Neither one of them were there when Morgase disappeared.
Also remember that Egwene/AS have told neither Gawyn nor Gareth Bryne the truth about any of this. GB for example still thinks that Morgase willingly betrayed Andor when we know that she was simply a victim of Rahvins compulsion. Not even Siuan has told him which I think is a really twisted and cruel thing to do.
I believe it has gotten to the point that nothing will convince Gawyn that Rand didn't kill his mother other than seeing Morgase himself. He's held on to that hatred for too long, allowed it to fester.
I don't think this is really close to a potential duel with Gawyn. This was not with real swords as you say, but most importantly this happened BEFORE Rand went to SL and did the whole balefire-joining with Moridin and before he lost his hand.
And I seem to recall that it was less about proving his superiority, and more about trying to impress Toram to make him more pliable to Rand's political approaches.
And I seem to recall that it was less about proving his superiority, and more about trying to impress Toram to make him more pliable to Rand's political approaches.
Perhaps. The whole thing was in Min's point of view, so it's hard to say. But I don't think that the duels are a coincidence. One blademaster from Seanchan, another from Cairhien, and another from Andor. Three Mordred parallels, and three Camlann parallels. In the case of Caemlyn, the Mordred parallel and the blademaster are one and the same.
Obviously if the pattern wants Rand dead, he will die. The pattern could easily arrange for Rand to slip and break his neck if it wanted to. I just don't know if he really has to die this way, or if Gawyn has to be the one to do it.
Not sure what your point is about the Pattern. Rand could die any number of ways, but are those ways supported by the evidence? Mine is.
Though you would expect that if Rand goes to Caemlyn, Nynaeve will join him to visit her friend Elayne if nothing else.
We don't have enough evidence to expect anything of the sort, really. Nor do we have any reason to believe that the duel between Rand and Gawyn is impossible, just because there are some possible circumstances that might prevent it.
I am just being devils advocate here by trying to point out things where things might not make sense. Your theory relies greatly on speculation and on the assumptions that things will follow very closely to Arthurian legends. I guess we shall see.
Not just Arthurian legends, but also Jesus stuff, and who knows how many other parallels. RJ said that most Americans would probably recognize those more than others. And though I think some details will follow closely, I think that they will be mixed up a good deal too. My theory is supported by foreshadowing in the books, or else I wouldn't have any particular reason to think that RJ would mix up the myths and legends in this particular way.
The whole stab each other simultaneously thing would also be a bit repetitive. We already had that with Rand and Ishy in book 2.
Perhaps.
Balefire is direct.
How do you know? Did RJ confirm that or is there something in the book that says this?
The weave touches the person directly. With lightning, the weave touches the clouds, or the air, and everything else that follows is more or less natural, and indirect.
Also:
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 24 - A New Commitment
"We shall see what we find," Bryne said. "Regardless, once I get you a meeting with the Aes Sedai leaders, I want your word that you'll go back to Caemlyn. Leave Egwene to us. You need to help Elayne. It's your place to be in Andor."
"I could say the same of you." Gawyn surveyed the teeming followers' camp. Where had the woman been?
"You could," Bryne said gruffly. "But it wouldn't be true. Your mother saw to that."
Gawyn glanced at him.
"She put me out to pasture, Gawyn. Banished me and threatened me with death."
"Impossible!"
Bryne looked grim. "I felt the same way. But it is true nonetheless. The things she said . . . they stung, Gawyn. That they did indeed."
That was all Bryne said, but from him, it spoke volumes. Gawyn had never heard the man offer a word of discontent about his station or his orders. He had been loyal to Morgase—loyal with the kind of steadfastness a ruler could only hope for. Gawyn had never known a man more sure, or a man less likely to complain.
"It must have been part of some scheme," Gawyn said. "You know Mother. If she hurt you, there was a reason."
Bryne shook his head. "No reason other than foolish love for that fop Gaebril. She nearly let her clouded head ruin Andor."
"She'd never!" Gawyn snapped. "Gareth, you of all people should know that!"
"I should," Bryne said, lowering his voice. "And I wish I did."
"She had another motive," Gawyn said stubbornly. He felt the heat of anger rise within him again. Around them, peddlers glanced at the two, but said nothing. They probably knew not to approach Bryne. "But now we'll never know it. Not now that she's dead. Curse al'Thor! The day can't come soon enough when I can run him through."
Bryne looked at Gawyn sharply. "Al'Thor saved Andor, son. Or as near to it as a man could."
"How could you say that?" Gawyn said, pulling his hand away. "How could you speak well of that monster? He killed my mother!"
"I don't know if I believe those rumors or not," Bryne said, rubbing his chin. "But if I do, lad, then perhaps he did Andor a favor. You don't know how bad it got, there at the end."
"I can't believe I'm hearing this," Gawyn said, lowering his hand to his sword. "I won't hear her name soiled like that, Bryne. I mean it."
Bryne looked him directly in the eyes. His gaze was so solid. Like eyes carved of granite. "I'll always speak truth, Gawyn. No matter who challenges me on it. It's hard to hear? Well, it was harder to live. No good comes of spreading complaints. But her son needs to know. In the end, Gawyn, your mother turned against Andor by embracing Gaebril. She needed to be removed. If al'Thor did that for us, then we have need to thank him."
Gawyn shook his head, rage and shock fighting one another. This was Gareth Bryne?
"These aren't the words of a spurned lover," Bryne said, face set, as if shoving aside emotions. He spoke softly as he and Gawyn walked, camp followers giving them a wide berth. "I can accept that a woman could lose affection for a man and bestow it on another. Yes, Morgase the woman I can forgive. But Morgase the Queen? She gave the kingdom to that snake. She sent her allies to be beaten and imprisoned. She wasn't right in her mind. Sometimes, when a soldier's arm festers, it needs to be cut free to save the man's life. I'm pleased at Elayne's success, and it is a wound to speak these words. But you have to bury that hatred of al'Thor. He wasn't the problem. Your mother was."
Gawyn kept his teeth clenched. Never, he thought. I will never forgive al'Thor. Not for this.
"I can see the intent behind that look," Bryne said. "All the more reason to get you back to Andor. You'll see. If you don't trust me, ask your sister. See what she says of it."
Gawyn nodded sharply. Enough of that. Ahead, he noted the place where he'd seen the woman. He glanced toward the distant lines of washwomen, then turned and strode toward them, edging between two merchants with pungent pens full of chickens, selling eggs. "This way," he said, perhaps too sharply.
CHAPTER: 24 - A New Commitment
"We shall see what we find," Bryne said. "Regardless, once I get you a meeting with the Aes Sedai leaders, I want your word that you'll go back to Caemlyn. Leave Egwene to us. You need to help Elayne. It's your place to be in Andor."
"I could say the same of you." Gawyn surveyed the teeming followers' camp. Where had the woman been?
"You could," Bryne said gruffly. "But it wouldn't be true. Your mother saw to that."
Gawyn glanced at him.
"She put me out to pasture, Gawyn. Banished me and threatened me with death."
"Impossible!"
Bryne looked grim. "I felt the same way. But it is true nonetheless. The things she said . . . they stung, Gawyn. That they did indeed."
That was all Bryne said, but from him, it spoke volumes. Gawyn had never heard the man offer a word of discontent about his station or his orders. He had been loyal to Morgase—loyal with the kind of steadfastness a ruler could only hope for. Gawyn had never known a man more sure, or a man less likely to complain.
"It must have been part of some scheme," Gawyn said. "You know Mother. If she hurt you, there was a reason."
Bryne shook his head. "No reason other than foolish love for that fop Gaebril. She nearly let her clouded head ruin Andor."
"She'd never!" Gawyn snapped. "Gareth, you of all people should know that!"
"I should," Bryne said, lowering his voice. "And I wish I did."
"She had another motive," Gawyn said stubbornly. He felt the heat of anger rise within him again. Around them, peddlers glanced at the two, but said nothing. They probably knew not to approach Bryne. "But now we'll never know it. Not now that she's dead. Curse al'Thor! The day can't come soon enough when I can run him through."
Bryne looked at Gawyn sharply. "Al'Thor saved Andor, son. Or as near to it as a man could."
"How could you say that?" Gawyn said, pulling his hand away. "How could you speak well of that monster? He killed my mother!"
"I don't know if I believe those rumors or not," Bryne said, rubbing his chin. "But if I do, lad, then perhaps he did Andor a favor. You don't know how bad it got, there at the end."
"I can't believe I'm hearing this," Gawyn said, lowering his hand to his sword. "I won't hear her name soiled like that, Bryne. I mean it."
Bryne looked him directly in the eyes. His gaze was so solid. Like eyes carved of granite. "I'll always speak truth, Gawyn. No matter who challenges me on it. It's hard to hear? Well, it was harder to live. No good comes of spreading complaints. But her son needs to know. In the end, Gawyn, your mother turned against Andor by embracing Gaebril. She needed to be removed. If al'Thor did that for us, then we have need to thank him."
Gawyn shook his head, rage and shock fighting one another. This was Gareth Bryne?
"These aren't the words of a spurned lover," Bryne said, face set, as if shoving aside emotions. He spoke softly as he and Gawyn walked, camp followers giving them a wide berth. "I can accept that a woman could lose affection for a man and bestow it on another. Yes, Morgase the woman I can forgive. But Morgase the Queen? She gave the kingdom to that snake. She sent her allies to be beaten and imprisoned. She wasn't right in her mind. Sometimes, when a soldier's arm festers, it needs to be cut free to save the man's life. I'm pleased at Elayne's success, and it is a wound to speak these words. But you have to bury that hatred of al'Thor. He wasn't the problem. Your mother was."
Gawyn kept his teeth clenched. Never, he thought. I will never forgive al'Thor. Not for this.
"I can see the intent behind that look," Bryne said. "All the more reason to get you back to Andor. You'll see. If you don't trust me, ask your sister. See what she says of it."
Gawyn nodded sharply. Enough of that. Ahead, he noted the place where he'd seen the woman. He glanced toward the distant lines of washwomen, then turned and strode toward them, edging between two merchants with pungent pens full of chickens, selling eggs. "This way," he said, perhaps too sharply.
Here's Gareth Bryne telling him the truth, but Gawyn refusing to hear it. You'd think he'd be more inclined to believe it from Elayne, who knows about Rahvin, but there's all that stubbornness about it. Why? It's obviously going to lead to some drama; RJ has been foreshadowing it forever. Since we know Rand has to die, and since Gawyn vs. Rand is supported in the legends, not to mention foreshadowed, then why not?