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See, this is why I am right and you are wrong! Terez Send a noteboard - 04/05/2010 03:56:31 AM
In my view your idea that Min's Viewing about Alivia helping Rand to die is fulfilled by letting herself killed by Seanchan, so that Gawyn can take Mat's medallion from her - which Alivia for some reason will get from Elayne, who for some reason got it from Mat, because apparently both don't need it (but why would Gawyn take it then anyway? he doesn't know that it stops channeling) - and go on to kill Rand (who has no other guards around?) is simply too far-fetched for me. Min's Viewing clearly implies a more direct help from Alivia in Rand's death, IMO.

I find it rather strange that you believe that my theory does not fulfill the viewing because Alivia helps him die in a random way (which is very much RJ's style, IMO), yet you think your theory fits it better when it does not seem to include Rand actually dying. Min's viewing says he will die, and the words that she uses come with the viewing.

Gawyn will obviously have to learn from some source about what the medallion does. I don't see why you think this is unlikely. And while I feel no need to theorize on exactly how he will find out, I can imagine several scenarios where he could find out.

For instance (I'm not saying this is how it will happen...just one way it could happen): Mat thinks the 'Finns will steal his medallion, so he gives it to Elayne to keep safe for him, with the ulterior motive of keeping her safe like Rand asked him to forever ago. Gawyn comes to Caemlyn before the battle begins. He is either there when Mat gives the medallion to Elayne, or he learns how it works in some other way. Rand isn't there yet. Gawyn and Elayne fight about Rand, so Elayne is not inclined to let him use the medallion when the battle begins, but he leads her troops because it is his duty. Shortly after the battle begins, Rand shows up with Alivia. Elayne gives the medallion to Alivia to use because she knows she doesn't need it (either because it doesn't work, or because she knows she will survive to give birth to her babies). Alivia kicks Seanchan ass, dies, and Gawyn sees her, and takes the medallion off her body because he knows Rand is nearby and he wants to kill him.

That then Nynaeve also has to rip out Rand from TAR seems highly unlikely as well, because it seems - like in Birgitte's case - to be a short-circuiting of the Pattern, which isn't supposed to happen. If the Dragon is needed, he is spun out.

He can't be spun out right after he dies. He has to be ripped out. It's not exactly short-circuiting. Min's viewings about Birgitte seem to suggest that Birgitte is very much still a Hero of the Horn, even after having been ripped out. It was only a bad thing for Birgitte because she's not sure if she'll find Gaidal now, and because she'll be much older than him, and because she almost died from it. Rand's three women will save him with their bond to him. The reason why Birgitte was compelled to break the precepts is because Nynaeve needed to learn how to 'heal' Rand's death.

Also, as said, the Heroes waiting in TAR are dead (even if not as dead as others), while a Hero, who is ripped out of TAR, is alive. Thus, Rand wouldn't be alive and dead at the same time, but first dead and then alive.

He will be dead and alive at the same time because Heroes are not dead as others are dead. They are still able to interact with the living in Tel'aran'rhiod. Rand might choose to not break the precepts, but Nynaeve (possibly with Egwene) could find him with Need (Egwene might be needed to hold him once he's found - Birgitte said that the living can do more in Tel'aran'rhiod than the Heroes can).

But there is of course the possibility that the Aelfinn's prophecied "death" would be fulfilled if Rand e.g. just has to be in a deep coma so that he appears to be dead to others, while he is actually still alive. The Prophecies are often not completely literal, e.g. Rand wasn't literally blind as the end Prophecy of TGS.

He's either dead or he's not. In this scenario, he is not. Mat's hanging didn't count for 'die and live again', and his heart actually stopped beating. Rand being in a coma won't count either. After all, the prophecies come from the same source. In my scenario, Rand is as dead as he will ever be, short of permanent death, but as a Hero of the Horn, he is still alive, in the sense that the living can find him in Tel'aran'rhiod, and in the sense that he can easily be ripped out into the living world again.

Of course, I don't think that any Hero could be ripped out at any time. They would either have to break the precepts like Birgitte, or be found by Need, like Rand, because when a Hero doesn't want to be found, they won't be found.
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