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well, yeah ranagrande Send a noteboard - 05/09/2009 02:33:51 PM

So you are saying that if anybody does anything at all, if there has been initial input by someone else than your work means nothing? Excuse me if I say BS! Lets take a real world example. I do warranty analysis for the people who make the NYC subway cars. The warranty team's job is to keep the trains running during the warranty period. Subway trains are incredibly complex pieces of machinery, software, and firmware with all kinds of systemic interlocks, communication and controllers. Some of our techs are absolutely brilliant diagnosticians who can get to the root of a difficult problem and determine how to fix it. If I tell one of these guy to fix the train, and he does, are you going to try to tell me that since I asked him to fix it that the repair isn't his but mine? And the credit goes to me? You gotta be kidding right?

People are never as important as they think they are. That tech did a good job repairing the train, so sure, he gets some credit. But if he hadn't done it, one of the others probably would have. If the fix would not have been made without your asking, then yes, you might deserve credit for it. However, you wouldn't have noticed anything if there was no train to begin with, so perhaps credit should really just go to its builders or inventors. The line can (almost) always be traced further back. In the grand scheme of things, the NYC subway system is superfluous anyway, just like the Aes Sedai.

Or take another example from my experience. I used to be a professional musician. Was in several small bands generally either quintets or sextets. Say someone hires us for a gig, small concert hall seating maybe 2000. It's a bad night, one guy has a bad cold, lead singer had a big fight with her boyfriend, the bass player wants to quit. We play terrible. But according to you our bad music would be the fault of the music director of the hall! Simply because he asked us to play there. I'm sorry but that idea is just plain nuts. I am responsible for my actions, my successes and my failures not someone else. And I be willing to bet that you'd scream bloody murder if some AS tried to take credit of something she asked someone else to do.

You can bet that there will be people who blame that music director and insist that he should have booked a better band. As before, the negativity always travels further back. The owner of the music hall should be ashamed for having a music director that booked a band that had an off-night. Fortunately for them, it too is all rather superfluous.

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You know... it feels like the Aes Sedai are pretty superflouous beetnemesis - 02/09/2009 09:48:19 PM 1177 Views

Y'know, the paralells betwen the Aes Sedai in the White Tower... vandevere - 02/09/2009 10:46:29 PM 765 Views

Well said. Hadn't really thought of it that way before

*NM* Bryce - 03/09/2009 12:01:30 AM 483 Views

That is the inspiration for the Aes Sedai that RJ used - I can't find the article, though. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/09/2009 02:39:14 PM 709 Views

When I was reading this I was thinking of the paralells between the white tower and Tashmere - 03/09/2009 02:47:33 AM 913 Views

And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 03:37:14 AM 786 Views

Re: And yet the WT has been THE single greatest force for continuity and civilization. Corwin - 03/09/2009 05:46:13 AM 743 Views

Really? fionwe1987 - 03/09/2009 05:52:38 AM 713 Views

Re: Really? Corwin - 03/09/2009 06:03:13 AM 679 Views

So lets add a few more NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 11:42:48 AM 682 Views

most of these are accounted for above ranagrande - 03/09/2009 02:18:01 PM 756 Views

Just because we don't know all their names, doesn't mean their effectiveness on the Pattern was less RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/09/2009 03:19:41 PM 719 Views

But who did the work? NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 05:37:00 PM 607 Views

While these are good, none of it is because of the White Tower beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:43:56 PM 630 Views

So if Elaida didn't order it, it doesn't count? NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 07:29:20 PM 618 Views

Actually I think that's his point ranagrande - 04/09/2009 01:40:37 PM 700 Views

Spot-on beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 08:56:30 PM 527 Views

Re: Actually I think that's his point NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 03:17:25 AM 567 Views

Re: But who did the work? ranagrande - 04/09/2009 01:32:19 PM 642 Views

Only one point because obviously your mind is made up. NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 06:13:23 AM 669 Views

well, yeah ranagrande - 05/09/2009 02:33:51 PM 737 Views

In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. fionwe1987 - 05/09/2009 03:03:07 PM 608 Views

Re: In that case, Rand, Mat, Perrin... all of them are superfluous. NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 04:57:44 PM 603 Views

No, fionwe1987 is absolutely right! ranagrande - 05/09/2009 05:13:39 PM 563 Views

I'm glad the real world disagrees with you NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 05:05:50 PM 607 Views

I'm not convinced that it does ranagrande - 05/09/2009 05:44:10 PM 708 Views

I don't understand your point Sidious - 03/09/2009 04:25:22 PM 629 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Corwin - 03/09/2009 09:09:38 PM 677 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Sidious - 03/09/2009 09:23:53 PM 610 Views

Re: I don't understand your point Corwin - 05/09/2009 09:02:47 AM 810 Views

Re: I don't understand your point NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 09:49:58 PM 589 Views

I was talking about the WT specifically, and only during recent years. It's Gotta be the Shadow, beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:39:11 PM 607 Views

So what you are really saying is that if you ignore over 2/3rds of the AS the rest aren't doing much NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 06:07:23 PM 552 Views

I'm talking about the organization as a whole beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 10:07:37 PM 622 Views

No you are talking about Elaida NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:32:59 PM 545 Views

You just made our point... fionwe1987 - 04/09/2009 12:49:44 AM 642 Views

Well, because most of her actions infringe on that "bubble" beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 09:00:52 PM 547 Views

Not at all... fionwe1987 - 04/09/2009 09:23:09 PM 655 Views

WT has been THE single greatest force for stagancy and lack of development. Lohikaarme - 09/09/2009 08:58:58 AM 574 Views

Like I said earlier the AS are superfluous except the ones who aren't superfluous.

NaClH2O - 09/09/2009 11:55:47 AM 650 Views

To a certain extent ajsr1982 - 03/09/2009 11:33:30 AM 791 Views

Definitely. And Egwene is in denial. beetnemesis - 03/09/2009 05:53:14 PM 633 Views

Some pretty big blanket statements NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:24:50 PM 747 Views

Without the Tower Voscaia Sedai - 03/09/2009 02:05:09 PM 541 Views

Actually, I think Verin is a good metaphor here. nossy - 03/09/2009 07:59:46 PM 588 Views

Agrees with Nossy NaClH2O - 03/09/2009 10:44:06 PM 883 Views

That's mostly what I was trying to say beetnemesis - 04/09/2009 09:03:52 PM 546 Views

Re: That's mostly what I was trying to say NaClH2O - 05/09/2009 03:33:46 AM 888 Views

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<quote id="10245">
<quote id="10082">So you are saying that if anybody does anything at all, if there has been initial input by someone else than your work means nothing? Excuse me if I say BS! Lets take a real world example. I do warranty analysis for the people who make the NYC subway cars. The warranty team's job is to keep the trains running during the warranty period. Subway trains are incredibly complex pieces of machinery, software, and firmware with all kinds of systemic interlocks, communication and controllers. Some of our techs are absolutely brilliant diagnosticians who can get to the root of a difficult problem and determine how to fix it. If I tell one of these guy to fix the train, and he does, are you going to try to tell me that since I asked him to fix it that the repair isn't his but mine? And the credit goes to me? You gotta be kidding right?</quote>People are never as important as they think they are.  That tech did a good job repairing the train, so sure, he gets some credit.  But if he hadn't done it, one of the others probably would have.  If the fix would not have been made without your asking, then yes, you might deserve credit for it.  However, you wouldn't have noticed anything if there was no train to begin with, so perhaps credit should really just go to its builders or inventors.  The line can (almost) always be traced further back.  In the grand scheme of things, the NYC subway system is superfluous anyway, just like the Aes Sedai.

<quote id="10082">Or take another example from my experience. I used to be a professional musician. Was in several small bands generally either quintets or sextets. Say someone hires us for a gig, small concert hall seating maybe 2000. It's a bad night, one guy has a bad cold, lead singer had a big fight with her boyfriend, the bass player wants to quit. We play terrible. But according to you our bad music would be the fault of the music director of the hall! Simply because he asked us to play there. I'm sorry but that idea is just plain nuts. I am responsible for my actions, my successes and my failures not someone else. And I be willing to bet that you'd scream bloody murder if some AS tried to take credit of something she asked someone else to do.</quote>You can bet that there will be people who blame that music director and insist that he should have booked a better band.  As before, the negativity always travels further back.  The owner of the music hall should be ashamed for having a music director that booked a band that had an off-night.  Fortunately for them, it too is all rather superfluous.
</quote>

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