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Yeah... Etzel Send a noteboard - 23/04/2010 10:03:19 AM
But given the concept of infinity and endlessly cyclical time, I believe that this 'first' Age, when the Creator created everything, is not actually the first because in order to have infinite cycles, an infinite past had to be created along with an infinite future.


The 7 spoked Wheel is basically an image for a cosmic loom, which bit by bit creates the respective Pattern of each Age. There must have been a time, when the weaving of the Pattern started, after the Creator placed the Wheel, and thus there must have been a "first 1st Age", a "first 2nd Age", and so on.


Why do you assume it is impossible for the Creator to create infinite time going backward in time, but possible to create infinite time going forward?


But if he actually did this. As far as we know from RJ about the cosmology of the WoT, the Pattern is gradually "woven" by the Wheel. This implies - of course - a first 1st Age, even if this Age and all following Ages are then endlessly repeated. The Creator didn't already create the full Pattern with all of the past and future from the start.


... there is no beginning or ending to the turning of the Wheel. It's in, like, the first paragraph of every book :P.

Seriously though, time cannot be circular if it has a beginning, and since it does have a beginning, that means that it needs to have been created retrospectively as well as prospectively, so that it would stretch back infinitely in what is a strange paradox.

This becomes even weirder when you factor in Shai'tan and that he was sealed 'at the moment of Creation'. What does that mean for him, especially given that in his current state he cannot step outside of time?

Also, while the future is to some extend predetermined, it has not yet been woven. Is the same thing happening in the past? Is a past always in the process of being created by the turning of the Wheel, or was an infinite past created instantly?

The point is, the Wheel of Time's cosmology requires that there not be a beginning, so one must assume there wasn't.


Now, after the cycle is established, there are indeed no beginnings or endings, since it is a Wheel and we have a full Pattern. Nevertheless there must have been a first turning of the Wheel and a first weaving of the Pattern, after the moment of Creation. After the first full turn of the Wheel, the Wheel basically weaves over the present Pattern and, while most remains the same, details are changed.
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thinking on the 4th-7th and 1st ages.... mazza3 - 21/04/2010 10:32:38 PM 1238 Views
Re: thinking on the 4th-7th and 1st ages.... GateKeeper - 22/04/2010 12:54:27 AM 883 Views
Re: thinking on the 4th-7th and 1st ages.... Kieran - 22/04/2010 07:06:52 AM 647 Views
I don't know that there could really be a first or last Age... Fanatic-Templar - 22/04/2010 07:48:11 AM 758 Views
Yeah, it's the "third age"... DomA - 22/04/2010 02:13:56 PM 730 Views
Difficult to see how you can refer to a billion people as a "fringe"... *NM* Shannow - 22/04/2010 05:02:08 PM 331 Views
You really think half of all christians believe that Earth is only 3000 years old? *NM* Japhy - 23/04/2010 12:35:01 AM 337 Views
Last I've heard, the majority of Christians weren't fundamentalists DomA - 23/04/2010 01:54:04 PM 644 Views
How about "living on the fringe of reality"? *NM* Marshall - 24/04/2010 10:21:17 PM 333 Views
That's not entirely right Etzel - 22/04/2010 03:54:23 PM 683 Views
I think FT is saying that human conceptions of time don't apply to eternity. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/04/2010 04:14:45 PM 622 Views
However, I think RJ definitely had an idea, what each Age of the 7 Ages is supposed to be. *NM* Etzel - 22/04/2010 09:53:20 PM 313 Views
I don't think so. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/04/2010 09:57:43 PM 599 Views
No, the point is... Etzel - 23/04/2010 10:06:03 AM 676 Views
Not sure what your point/question is. Doesn't seem like an issue to me quite frankly . RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/04/2010 04:45:21 PM 678 Views
The question is... Etzel - 26/04/2010 05:08:48 PM 608 Views
I agree with FT RugbyPlayingAshaman - 26/04/2010 06:28:29 PM 769 Views
Well, maybe. Fanatic-Templar - 22/04/2010 06:32:05 PM 650 Views
Doesn't make sense Etzel - 22/04/2010 09:51:55 PM 593 Views
Why? Fanatic-Templar - 22/04/2010 11:16:21 PM 619 Views
Ok File Leader - 23/04/2010 12:15:03 AM 616 Views
The question isn't if it would be possible for the Creator... Etzel - 23/04/2010 08:34:23 AM 618 Views
Yes, but as we also know from the cosmology of WoT... Fanatic-Templar - 23/04/2010 09:08:58 AM 672 Views
Yeah... Etzel - 23/04/2010 10:03:19 AM 630 Views
Why must there have been such a thing? Fanatic-Templar - 23/04/2010 07:30:02 PM 626 Views
So, you believe there never was a first 1st Age? *NM* Etzel - 24/04/2010 08:55:45 AM 335 Views
Yes and no... Fanatic-Templar - 24/04/2010 10:55:02 PM 600 Views
Don't think so, but might be an interesting question for BS! *NM* Etzel - 25/04/2010 09:38:09 AM 303 Views
True that. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 25/04/2010 06:30:03 PM 361 Views
Yes there was a first age, no it is not a loop. Kieran - 23/04/2010 01:49:45 AM 675 Views
More change? Fanatic-Templar - 23/04/2010 05:03:22 AM 579 Views
Re: More change? Kieran - 24/04/2010 01:25:22 AM 612 Views
On the Ages... Etzel - 22/04/2010 02:16:38 PM 914 Views
Re: On the Ages... Kieran - 23/04/2010 01:54:16 AM 625 Views
Re: thinking on the 4th-7th and 1st ages.... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/04/2010 03:09:32 PM 733 Views
Nah, it's just a Tolkien rip-off... ursidae - 22/04/2010 06:05:50 PM 1054 Views
Re: thinking on the 4th-7th and 1st ages.... gjjfh - 23/04/2010 04:15:49 AM 674 Views
Can't be... Etzel - 23/04/2010 08:27:29 AM 645 Views
Yeah, but Loial apparently read a copy of The Lord of the Rings somewhere... Fanatic-Templar - 23/04/2010 09:11:00 AM 689 Views
It's reversed... Etzel - 23/04/2010 10:10:56 AM 751 Views
I doubt it, I don't have the books with me right now... Fanatic-Templar - 23/04/2010 07:31:34 PM 689 Views
I don't think that's right. *NM* Etzel - 24/04/2010 08:57:45 AM 652 Views
You're right, that is not referenced in the book. Fanatic-Templar - 25/04/2010 06:34:29 PM 595 Views
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