But then, she revels in how much she can strike from the shadows, so in the end she just didn't have the guts to strike at these two even from the shadows....
Yes. In some ways Moghedien is about as obsolete as Aginor. She mastered hiding and subterfuge, but in an Age where people were wholly ignorant of it and were amateurs at best. Now she's in a new Age where trackers, spies and cutthroats exists in many places. Half the Black Ajah can sneak up on people as well as she can. Ask Tamra Ospenya.
That has a lot to do with her name and status. She certainly didn't impress Liandrin much. 
True, but then it's difficult to take sides in a group of psychopaths. I don't recall Liandrin having too much to say about Ishamael either. And let's not forget that Moghedien was the maid for half the time Liandrin knew her - it was a difficult shift for her to accept.
She should have been able to fight the reality of the a'dam, though, it's only a matter of denial and strong will. The a'dam didn't impair her will... I'm pretty sure Amys, Egwene or Lanfear would have escaped. It sounds like Moghedien was shocked by her capture and gave in to panic. She lost all her means and once she gave in to the reality of the a'dam, there was no way out as not denying its reality made it even stronger.. like happens with nightmares.
There's no conclusive proof that the a'dam stops a Dreamer (it didn't throw Moghedien out of TAR, we can tell as much, so it appears one can dreamwalk while wearing an a'dam...), but we don't know Moghedien is a Dreamer (she never showed any sign of oracular skills). She looks to be a trained dreamwalker, and it may be that she uses a weave of spirit to dream herself into TAR instead of the non-OP method used by the real dreamers like Egwene and the WO. Perhaps all the Forsaken must do this (that they know how to do with a spirit weave what other non-Dreamers need a ter'angreal to do. It seems that part of the reason for this is that you need some skills to modulate your weave properly, while the trainign ter'angreal does it for you and doesn't let you be there too strongly). If that's the case, she couldn't use TAR while a prisoner not because the a'dam impaired her but because she couldn't touch the source without the sul'dam letting her. It would mean Egwene or Amys would not at all be stopped from entering TAR by an a'dam.
There's no conclusive proof that the a'dam stops a Dreamer (it didn't throw Moghedien out of TAR, we can tell as much, so it appears one can dreamwalk while wearing an a'dam...), but we don't know Moghedien is a Dreamer (she never showed any sign of oracular skills). She looks to be a trained dreamwalker, and it may be that she uses a weave of spirit to dream herself into TAR instead of the non-OP method used by the real dreamers like Egwene and the WO. Perhaps all the Forsaken must do this (that they know how to do with a spirit weave what other non-Dreamers need a ter'angreal to do. It seems that part of the reason for this is that you need some skills to modulate your weave properly, while the trainign ter'angreal does it for you and doesn't let you be there too strongly). If that's the case, she couldn't use TAR while a prisoner not because the a'dam impaired her but because she couldn't touch the source without the sul'dam letting her. It would mean Egwene or Amys would not at all be stopped from entering TAR by an a'dam.
I think there could be many issues here. The a'dam is a complex ter'angreal. When Nynaeve gave Moghedien a sleeping concoction, Moghedien thought it was poison and refused to drink it. It stands to reason that most things are pretty much on par with reality in TAR. The a'dam is a mental ter'angreal more than a physical one - it controls channeling, and can dominate and mimic most mental functions. I'm not sure if 'unimagining it' would help, though I guess both sides could be argued.
And yet, despite her excellent position she apparently didn't dare take out Lews Therin. She remained hidden until she was chased away.
I think her main purpose was infiltration and gathering of knowledge more than any attempt to kill of Lews Therin and his people. She is credited as having caused several disasters in the War of Power. Either way, no one managed to kill Lews Therin so it's a hard standard to beat. Lanfear was scared that Moghedien would be one of the Forsaken to take Rand out before he could train himself.
She can strike from the shadows and then she's very dangerous - but it seems most time she fancies she is in the shadow waiting for opportunities to attack when in fact she's there to hide and won't strike unless provoked.
Since so much with TAR revolves around sheer force of will (which is why the strong-willed Nynaeve and Siuan were remotely better than the rest even without much training or raw skills) it's really hard to believe Moghedien has the confidence and strength of will to make the most of her skills unless she's on her own in TAR, even if in theory she knows more and can do more than Lanfear or Moridin. It sounds like these two, the WO and above all Egwene would outclass Moghedien in an open TAR fight just because of their much stronger will. In TAR like elsewhere, Moghedien most likely would have to strike from the shadows to hope defeating them. In an open contest, she'd probably go down because her will and confidence aren't strong enough. Sooner or later her cowardice or weak personality would make her doubt even for a split second, panic and falter, and she'd be finished. It's interesting incidentally that when Lanfear faced Rand at the docks, she approached it quite a bit as a duel of wills as if she was fighting in TAR. I really wouldn't want to challenge Lanfear to a duel of wills in TAR... If Egwene or the WO need to face Cyndane there during TG, it will be nasty, a lot more so than if they have to fight Moghedien.
Since so much with TAR revolves around sheer force of will (which is why the strong-willed Nynaeve and Siuan were remotely better than the rest even without much training or raw skills) it's really hard to believe Moghedien has the confidence and strength of will to make the most of her skills unless she's on her own in TAR, even if in theory she knows more and can do more than Lanfear or Moridin. It sounds like these two, the WO and above all Egwene would outclass Moghedien in an open TAR fight just because of their much stronger will. In TAR like elsewhere, Moghedien most likely would have to strike from the shadows to hope defeating them. In an open contest, she'd probably go down because her will and confidence aren't strong enough. Sooner or later her cowardice or weak personality would make her doubt even for a split second, panic and falter, and she'd be finished. It's interesting incidentally that when Lanfear faced Rand at the docks, she approached it quite a bit as a duel of wills as if she was fighting in TAR. I really wouldn't want to challenge Lanfear to a duel of wills in TAR... If Egwene or the WO need to face Cyndane there during TG, it will be nasty, a lot more so than if they have to fight Moghedien.
I think her Talent for TAR is the highest in the series, but I agree with you that she lacks too many other things to be the real ruler of TAR. She can create very elaborate traps (like she did with Egwene), and she easily overwhelmed Nynaeve initially. But like all the Forsaken she gives in to flaws that are magnified in those people a hundred times more than anything else. In Moghedien's case, her cowardice is self-limiting more than advantageous.
You should drop me an NB some time. I haven't spoken to you or Linda for a while. I hope your site is going well and that you guys are healthy
Wheel of Time board admin
Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
This message last edited by Sidious on 23/04/2010 at 06:28:58 AM
Some similarities between Semirhage and Moghedien
- 20/04/2010 04:17:27 PM
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Oops, my mistake.
- 20/04/2010 04:57:47 PM
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I was under the impression that Semirhage was quite feared among the Forsaken?
- 20/04/2010 07:25:45 PM
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Yes and in tGS Graendal thought she might be leading the triumForsakenate
- 20/04/2010 07:33:31 PM
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I was talking about Moghedien and Mesaana. Didn't read through the whole post lol *NM*
- 20/04/2010 09:17:56 PM
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Not even the title? 
*NM*
- 21/04/2010 12:16:40 AM
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*NM*
- 21/04/2010 12:16:40 AM
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15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 20/04/2010 08:15:46 PM
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Re: 15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 20/04/2010 09:21:18 PM
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Re: 15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 21/04/2010 01:23:09 AM
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Re: 15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 21/04/2010 04:43:10 PM
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Re: 15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 22/04/2010 06:38:28 PM
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Re: 15. Both have 9-letter names (plus some lesser-known similarities) ...
- 21/04/2010 02:30:10 PM
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Moghedien should really have been called the Wannabe or The Sponge instead of the Spider
- 20/04/2010 10:23:33 PM
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Lanfear: How'd you get so good at navigating TAR? Moghedien: I absorbed it.
- 20/04/2010 10:32:41 PM
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Ouch... little harsh there
- 21/04/2010 06:59:58 PM
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- 21/04/2010 06:59:58 PM
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Re: Ouch... little harsh there
- 22/04/2010 08:16:59 PM
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- 22/04/2010 08:16:59 PM
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Re: Ouch... little harsh there
- 23/04/2010 06:27:47 AM
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- 23/04/2010 06:27:47 AM
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Re: Some similarities between Semirhage and Moghedien
- 21/04/2010 01:35:08 AM
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Semi was at the Cleansing. You are mixing it up with the Forsaken Coffee Hour.
- 23/04/2010 02:15:44 PM
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When did Semirhage try to capture Nynaeve? I can't remenber that. *NM*
- 21/04/2010 06:31:39 PM
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Nynaeve insinuates an attack in KoD when Semirhage is captured *NM*
- 21/04/2010 07:01:42 PM
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