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Civics & economics 101 Cannoli Send a noteboard - 10/01/2010 08:47:07 AM
Your arguments throughout this post are almost offensively presumptive and making wild and unsupported assumptions about my values and perceptions, and makes you seem ignorant and stupid, and in no way different from (and especially not superior to) the people you deplore for making judgments about others' lifestyles.

I'm referring to the various rights and privileges that a legal marriage bestows, such as visitation rights,
So far as I know, parental visitation rights have nothing to do with the marital status of the parent. You don't get better or worse visitation rights when you remarry.

adoption and legal powers.
Gay people and single people can both adopt children. If an adopting authority has a list of criteria to gradiate prospective adoptors and uses this to favor married couples over non-traditional families, being forced to legally recognize a novelty marriage will not stop them from discriminating, it will simply cause the discriminating agency to readjust their guidelines ("for the good of the child" of course) so that checking the 'Married' box will not carry the same weight, and other criteria will be formulated that discriminate against disfavored situations. BTW, in that example we see a case for the complaints that same-sex-marriage will destroy traditional marriage - rather than knuckle under and grant to same-sex couples what they had previously only granted to married couples, people who seriously oppose same-sex-unions will simply withdraw the privileges they extend to marriages. Or other things will happen, such as a post on the CMB a while back, where the Catholic Church threatened to close up their secular operations in an area if that jurisdiction tried to force them to offer the same benefits to same-sex-married employees which they offered to traditionally married workers. It DOES indirectly screw with everyone else.

How much would remain unchanged if we did not grant people equal rights since it would force others to be unsettled with the change? If we went along with your argument (if I understand it correctly),
You don't.
we would still have slaves, women still would not vote,
What a shame if they didn't get those votes all those women who died at Bunker Hill and Yorktown were fighting for. But seriously, I have the same objections. Sufferage of a group is the business of the community. All the federal government had the right to impose was voting in Federal (i.e. Presidential) elections. It was none of the business of people in Massachusettes, or Washington DC, whether or not the women of New Hampshire could vote. If a woman wanted to vote that badly, she could go to a place where she IS allowed. No one should have had the right to enforce their opinions or views of the matter on others. And don't try citing slavery. That was one of those novel and non-traditional practices imposed by outsiders from above, for the benefit of a few, to the detriment of the majority. It was evil, but it was also not right to legislate morality on people who did not share it. Abolitionists were the fundamentalist religious radicals of their day, who insisted on imposing their religious beliefs on the public. You are making a false argument in another way on the topic of slavery, since you cannot prove it would not have gone away on its own, especially with the industrial revolution. Perhaps, had the moralizing reformers not forced their view of right and wrong down everyone's throat, we would not have had the problems of racism, which is called legacy of slavery, but might arguably better be cited as a legacy of abolition. There was nothing, for example, to stop opponents of slavery from buying and freeing slaves (since importing new ones was Constitutionally forbidden), or using economic brinksmanship from rendering the financially inefficient insitution moribund, as was done against the Soviet Union. Violating the legal system and trampling on the protections of individuals & groups, no matter how wrong those groups may be, merely puts everyone's freedom at risk. This is the principle by which we allow the use of offensive speech or unpopular religious beliefs, for if we let them persecute cults and pornographers, there is no protection for those who would use speech for good or the cause of freedom. Really, the cause of abolition was simply a case of people being to lazy to do the work bit by bit, and sought to have the government make their bugaboo go away. Likewise with same-sex-marriage - they don't want to do all the work to gain acceptance at all the levels they wish, they simply want to have the same recognition given them by force.

and we would still have the Prohibition.
Prohibition was one more thing like same-sex marriage - a novelty and untraditional change forced down everyone's throat by government fiat. It caused great social turmoil and damage because it disrupted entrenched practices and forced people to follow what one group believed to be the morally proper way. An archaeologist or anthorpologist would be hard-pressed to say which has a longer history of use in human society, alcohol or marriage, but screwing around with either would seem to be counter-indicated.

Would you have justified maintaining segregation based on "oh it would make the white people uncomfortable "?
I would have wanted the change to be voluntary or accepted, rather than imposed from outside and above. And once again, that was a reform imposed. Segregation was ORIGINALLY the brainchild of progressives and reformers who sought to protect black people from having to compete with whites in day-to-day life and preserve their society intact. The expressed ideal, after all, was "seperate but equal." I would have opposed it in the first place, because no government has the right to tell a business where to sit their customers or how to serve them. Either way. If one restaurant chooses to segregate their white and black customers and another does not, the first will attract those customers who prefer to eat apart from other races. It will attract those who don't care if its services, goods or prices are better. If blacks could get a better meal or a better price at the segregated restaurant, that would be up to them, and if segregation really was a problem, the economics would take care of it. In any event, a business either owns or pays for the property on which it is based, and has the right to arrange matters as it pleases. It has the right to keep customers out from behind the counter, or in one section of the service area, or to refuse service to whomever it wants for any reason, at least legally. Morally, maybe not, but who is to say which set of morals must be followed? Those moralizers in whom you approve, when they say equal politeness trumps the right to use private property as one wishes, may one day be replaced by equally sincere and devout moralizers who think sodomy is a capital offense. Best to let each go his own way and do as he wishes with himself and his property.

If an employer is racist or sexist, should he be allowed to deny wage and benefits to his colored or women workers?
Yes. It is the employer's property, and he has the right to dispose of it as he sees fit. If he wants to pay discriminatory or unfair wages, that is his business, which would suffer from want of workers, AND invite a competitor to offer better wages or working conditions. When an outside, non-market force compels changes in the market, the effects reach further than the immediate mandated change. A little regulation will only create more problems. If individuals choose to use their freedom to be jerks, at least the freedom exists for others to use in a more positive way. Taking away freedom will not necessarily stop the jerks but it will curtail the positive uses.

If a doctor disapproves of biracial marriages, should he be permitted to refuse to accept the insurance of his patient's spouse?
Absolutely. He should be free to accept any form of payment he wishes. A doctor should be free to refuse to deal with an insurance company or policy if he so chooses. If his behavior is medically unethical, that is a matter for his professional authorities. Such a doctor would lose his customers to a free market if regulations had not made most people slaves to their insurance policies anyway.

Should he be permitted to deny the spouse's decisions in regards to the care of said spouse?
So we are supposed to believe that a homosexual person in a committed relationship who is too lazy or improvident to take care of a living will or power of attorney will go through the trouble to plan and go through a wedding ceremony? You can designate anyone you want as a medical proxy, and the marriage thing doesn't open any doors in this regard that are not already open.

Why is it more ethical to deny someone health insurance on the sole basis of the insurer disapproving of the gender of one's spouse?
Because insurance is a private business transaction. No one should be obligated to insure anyone they do not want to. Why would an insurance company refuse an opportunity to make money? As for cases of employers providing insurance, that is the employer's business what they choose to provide. If their employees don't like that, they can work for an employer who WILL provide it, or who will pay them enough to purchase insurance for their partner.
I would prefer if employers did not provide insurance and just paid us instead, so I could actually USE more of my compensation as I wished. I don't need the vast majority of the insurance I am covered for and would prefer to buy a less comprehensive policy for a substantial savings and more money in my own pocket! Employer-provided insurance started out as a trick to evade a government-mandated wage freeze anyway. The requirements that employers provide insurance to their workers only takes money out of workers' pockets and gives it to the insurance companies, and allows another avenue for employers to discriminate. If they could go back to providing all compensation in the form of real money, this issue would never even arise, because people would have the money available to buy whatever insurance they wished, and the insurance companies would have to adjust to the demands of their customers, rather provide a blanket policy better suited to the needs of a large employer. As it is, employers who offer health insurance discriminate against the healthy by effectively paying sick (and logically less productive) employees more. By not bearing the costs of their health directly, there is less incentive for employees to maintain that health. Why watch your diet, avoid unhealthy habits or keep in shape, when you can have the consequences taken care of for free?

Do you also suggest that if an entity truly believes that blondes are idiots, it is ethical to refuse to employ people based on their hair color?
Not ethical, but it should be legal.

"forcing an employer to extend remuneration to a party because of a relationship that violates the employer's beliefs, etc"

Does this mean Christians need not extend insurance to Jews? If I was a Wiccan and you were my employer, you need not extend me the full benefits of similarly ranked and skilled employees?
I would if I wished to retain your services. It is MY money and I have the right to do with it as I please. If I choose to exclusively hire Christians or right-handed people, that is my business. What if my clientele were prejudiced and I lost business because some bureaucrat or legislator decided that I should not be able to choose employees who will bring in more business rather than drive it away?

I'm certain, then, you would not mind if a doctor refused to treat your children because they were raised in a Christian household?
Why not? Why would I want such a person touching my hypothetical kids anyway? And how many such doctors would there really be in a majority-Christian society anyway? Economics would force some of them to swallow their bile in order to feed their own children.

And it is perfectly acceptable for a policeman to refuse to stop a homeless person from being robbed if they hate hobos.
Using "hobos" as interchangable terminology for homeless people only reveals your ignorance. In truth, hobos were a migrant labor pool with their own subculture. In any event, policemen work for a police department, which is controlled and maintained by the community. For the most part, that means tax payers, who support the police department from taxes paid on their property or incomes, and thus the police officer's responsibility is to a group of which homeless people are highly unlikely to be members. If the police department or the community which controls it has no problem with permitting such behavior, that is not moral, but it is also not a legal issue. There are sound reasons why property owners or wage earners in a community would not wish homeless people to be welcome there, as their unpleasant presence degrades the property value of homes and can drive away property buyers and customers, or else could be a source of under-the-table competition for workers' jobs. If such behavior on the officer's part is not approved of by the department, that is an internal matter and there are channels through which to resolve the issue and correct the officer's behavior. If the community does not mind the police treating such people in this manner, the homeless person has the choice of altering either his circumstances or location (a dead bum is no better for business, so moving is likely to be encouraged, or else incarceration, in which case the homeless person now has shelter). Why should the homeless person's "right" to vagrancy trump the rights of the community?

Is it more ethical to let one's spouse lie ill because they cannot afford separate health insurance and an employer disapproves of their sexual orientation than for the employer to get all huffy about given the same benefits as they would give to a heterosexual couple? A century ago, it would have been a biracial couple, but if an employer did that now would you find it acceptable?
Yes. The rights of the employer to spend his money as he chooses far and away trump the right of another person to have the employer pay for an expense he has not incurred. And what the hell is wrong with homosexual #2? Why does he/she/it not have insurance through his/her/its employer? Why is it the fault of the employer that his worker "married" an unemployed bum who does not pull his/her/its weight? This is an example of the practices of marriage developing to accomodate the traditional sense of the institution, which are out of place for the novelty useage. The necessity of acquiring the income for a family unit, as every person with two brain cells to rub together knows, fell on the male parent, as the female parent was both less capable of the majority of remunerative productive activity, and handicapped by her biologically mandated role in the reproductive process. As the overwhelming majority of the work force gravitated towards such reproductive & economic arrangements, the primary incentive for laborers was to provide for their domestic partners and offspring. Thus, employers, when prevented from bidding on employees by the government freezing wages, in order to attract workers, offered a different service for the benefit of the laborer's dependants, who were his primary motivation for working at all. THE ENTIRE CONCEPT OF A DEPENDANT SPOUSE IS ROOTED IN THE PRESUMPTION OF A HETEROSEXUAL DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIP! There is no biological difference in a homosexual couple "forcing" one to undertake the reproductive role or making one the more viable income earner. The choices about division of responsibilities for a homosexual couple, such as income-earning roles, domestic-maintenance roles, or child-care roles are purely arbitrary and are the choice of the couple in question. Why should an employer be required to go along with a choice, made in part by someone to whom he has no responsibility, that has no bearing on him and is not an established or long-standing societal custom? Why should one partner's employer be required to provide health care for the other partner, simply because THEY chose to associate in that manner? Why penalize the one employer because he provides a better insurance plan, or employed someone willing to unnecessarily support his/her spouse?

If it is none of an employer's business how an employee lives his life outside of work, it should be none of his concern how the employee pays for his life. If the employer is funding his relationships, the employer should have a voice in the conduct of those relationships.

For the suffering you cite, I would blame the laws and practices which all but require people to depend on employers for their health care, and demand that the free market be allowed to operate in a truly free manner. Such a problem would not arise in a truly free market, and such a case as you invent can only come about thanks to excessive regulation. It is like the Dutch boy putting his fingers in the holes in the dyke, but that just allows the water pressure to build up and causing new leaks to spring out. If the dyke was not there in the first place, maybe the water would only be ankle high, but because of the unstable situation created by an artificially imposed dyke, he HAS to play whack-a-mole with the leaks because the alternative is to get swept away by the pending deluge.

The only "moral" principle beneath your issues is a childish belief that just because something would benefit someone, they are entitled to get it, regardless of who bears the costs. No one is entitled to food, shelter, health or health care, or clothing or employment, except what he or she can obtain through an exchange of goods or services. On the other hand, every is entitled to exchange their own goods or services for whatever price they can obtain without coercion. And that goes for EVERYONE. Merchants have the right to choose what prices they will sell their commodities for, and consumers have the right to decide whether or not they will pay that much, and no one has the right to force either party to accept a transaction on another's terms. THIS is what the classical liberals meant by the rights to "Life, Liberty & Property" and what the Declaration of Independance was attempting to express with the term "pursuit of happiness."
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Suspension of Disbelief with Politics - 05/01/2010 06:46:53 PM 1426 Views
Oh I hear ya! - 05/01/2010 08:35:38 PM 649 Views
I don't completely agree, but this is similar to everyone retroactively hating Tom Cruise's movies. - 05/01/2010 08:47:19 PM 679 Views
Which is just as silly, yes. *NM* - 05/01/2010 08:48:55 PM 310 Views
Who hates Top Gun? That movie R0X0RS! *NM* - 07/01/2010 06:19:48 AM 343 Views
You know, I never understood that - 07/01/2010 07:28:36 AM 561 Views
What?? Min Rep is fantastic! *NM* - 07/01/2010 08:19:30 AM 328 Views
*Stands on counter* I am the last Poet Bartender - 07/01/2010 02:08:56 PM 603 Views
LOL...~hands Dannymac a clue~ - 06/01/2010 04:51:43 AM 802 Views
Just judging him based on what he writes... - 06/01/2010 04:17:49 PM 640 Views
the point is... - 06/01/2010 11:25:46 PM 618 Views
talk about needing a clue - 09/01/2010 06:01:14 PM 570 Views
Wait...I support same-sex marriage. Just not all that other crap. - 07/01/2010 06:18:40 AM 602 Views
trespasses against persons is subjective. - 07/01/2010 07:09:22 AM 669 Views
Actually, it isn't. - 07/01/2010 03:46:30 PM 569 Views
ah I wasn't aware you were referring to a legal term - 07/01/2010 05:37:10 PM 599 Views
Considering that it's made-up BS, why should it be? - 09/01/2010 11:01:31 PM 597 Views
what about those not capable of walking away? - 10/01/2010 03:51:10 AM 522 Views
Who has the right to say a parent is abusing the child, and what prevents abuses the other way? - 10/01/2010 09:13:45 AM 753 Views
You are not wrong - 10/01/2010 04:43:55 PM 582 Views
Re: trespasses against persons is subjective. - 09/01/2010 11:12:57 PM 621 Views
but it is wrong to deny the legal ramifications of marriage - 10/01/2010 04:19:02 AM 709 Views
Civics & economics 101 - 10/01/2010 08:47:07 AM 707 Views
okay, I can agree on your points - 10/01/2010 05:14:32 PM 507 Views
That's not Economics 101. That's practically Anarcho-capitalism. - 13/01/2010 11:54:22 PM 571 Views
Duh. - 14/01/2010 03:00:56 AM 591 Views
The existence of that right isn't what I'm arguing. - 18/01/2010 09:01:07 AM 554 Views
Re: The existence of that right isn't what I'm arguing. - 18/01/2010 11:57:33 AM 864 Views
Apaprently I misread your earlier post. Very good points. *NM* - 19/01/2010 01:17:01 AM 299 Views
I'll agree to the trespass against persons - 09/01/2010 06:07:29 PM 628 Views
What bullshit you write. - 10/01/2010 01:30:02 AM 537 Views
uhm...nothing in nature shares with all. - 10/01/2010 05:28:04 AM 591 Views
So what you're saying is people shouldn't take movies to heart ? - 06/01/2010 01:39:21 PM 619 Views
That's just the point. - 06/01/2010 04:15:48 PM 703 Views
Precisely *NM* - 06/01/2010 04:45:58 PM 333 Views
indeed. they are not "soldiers" - 07/01/2010 07:12:32 AM 570 Views
that's a weasel script - 07/01/2010 09:55:13 AM 595 Views
well, it seems like it was less "lazy script writing" - 07/01/2010 05:38:35 PM 559 Views
huh. Well, my hunch would be - 07/01/2010 10:34:35 PM 689 Views
what makes them "look like military"?? - 09/01/2010 06:15:24 PM 646 Views
arguing the natives as terrorists would be a stretch *NM* - 09/01/2010 10:39:13 PM 315 Views
guessing you've seen it by now - 10/01/2010 12:48:57 PM 505 Views
AMEN *NM* - 09/01/2010 06:09:27 PM 289 Views
if the foo shits, wear it *NM* - 09/01/2010 06:08:11 PM 344 Views
I completely disagree with you about Avatar. - 06/01/2010 02:18:22 PM 671 Views
would you have felt better if they were albino aliens? - 07/01/2010 07:16:20 AM 604 Views
You know what it is for me... - 06/01/2010 07:37:10 PM 689 Views
That's understandable - 07/01/2010 07:25:23 AM 563 Views
That's totally what it is, hah - 08/01/2010 08:57:10 AM 698 Views
See...that's where I'm different. - 08/01/2010 03:33:30 PM 599 Views
I suppose the lesson is to not read about celebrities' politics? - 08/01/2010 06:22:10 PM 468 Views
But that's kind of the point... - 08/01/2010 06:51:05 PM 578 Views
Uh oh, you used the "c" word... - 08/01/2010 07:47:40 PM 673 Views
I hate it when you sound like an actual preacher - 08/01/2010 10:03:28 PM 587 Views
Aw, I liked some of those sentences. - 08/01/2010 11:07:15 PM 532 Views
Isn't that a Bible quote? *NM* - 09/01/2010 12:33:51 AM 317 Views
I guess maybe from an epistle? *NM* - 09/01/2010 02:44:36 AM 294 Views
Yup, Romans 8:31 - 09/01/2010 11:36:46 PM 481 Views
it's not that it was bad - 09/01/2010 01:01:21 AM 641 Views
That seems like a pretty dangerous philosophy. - 09/01/2010 06:24:35 AM 634 Views
Agreed. It also sounds absurd. I have +2 Armor of Christ. How about you? *NM* - 10/01/2010 06:42:24 PM 296 Views
he he *NM* - 11/01/2010 12:20:26 AM 274 Views
Maybe a little. - 11/01/2010 06:06:24 AM 683 Views
I like your philosophy. Thanks for sharing! *NM* - 11/01/2010 03:08:09 PM 265 Views
Ok, so apart from political subtexts, - 07/01/2010 05:40:28 AM 592 Views
You have to admire the world building though - 07/01/2010 07:27:13 AM 505 Views
Both of you are more or less right - 08/01/2010 08:59:34 AM 527 Views
He DID write the original screenplay, I thought? - 08/01/2010 10:04:07 PM 536 Views
And why is it that anyone who can <spoilers!> - 08/01/2010 09:03:45 AM 787 Views
Exactly! *Same spoilers ^he^ had. - 08/01/2010 04:59:16 PM 600 Views
You're looking at it from the outsider point of view - 08/01/2010 10:12:15 PM 575 Views
I don't buy it. - 09/01/2010 06:29:07 AM 601 Views
Especially with the warrior tribe mentality they all have! - 10/01/2010 08:25:57 PM 464 Views
if there were all these hotshot warriors trying - 11/01/2010 12:22:19 AM 547 Views
Poor scriptwriting *NM* - 11/01/2010 12:56:24 AM 281 Views
oh come on - 11/01/2010 01:00:40 AM 591 Views
Gher's right. It's Plot convinience, with a capital P *NM* - 13/01/2010 09:42:07 PM 283 Views
Re: Exactly! *Same spoilers ^he^ had. - 09/01/2010 01:27:59 PM 761 Views
It's pretty easy to conquer one of those things - 10/01/2010 08:27:20 PM 765 Views
Re: It's pretty easy to conquer one of those things - 10/01/2010 08:56:38 PM 538 Views
seriously - 11/01/2010 12:23:58 AM 506 Views

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