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I only partially agree Sidious Send a noteboard - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM

The theoretical maximum for males may be more than it is for females, but that is entirely meaningless in discussing men and women in daily life. Unless you think they're depicting the strongest man vs. the strongest woman in Force Awakens using slim and entirely physically unimposing Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley...

Meh, I'm not so sure about this. It's well established in medicine that men are about 50% stronger than women physically, especially in their upper limbs where the disparity can be up to 100%.

I'm not sure if you're hinting that perhaps Ren is a weaker man because he's geeky and that Rey is fit and strong, so they're basically equal. Physically I mean, not if you consider the Force. Because I find that unlikely. Look, I don't know you but I've had lots of interactions with women since I was a young male. They're no comparison in strength. For instance, as a student two girls would try to throw me into the swimming pool. It's easy to handle them both - we're much much stronger than them. My female friends often say that if their husbands want to overwhelm them playfully there is nothing they can do. Maybe there are some really powerful women out there but Rey is obviously smallish and almost petite. She hardly comes across as some Eastern European Olympic female weight lifter.


Designed by whom? God? Because evolution doesn't work by rules of "design".

Well indeed, and it's also only limited to mammals. Female insects are often much bigger and stronger, for instance. From an evolutionary aspect, men probably adapted to fight one another for genetic dominance and the right to procreate, thus the strength. It's even possible that original males were as strong as women but as partner selection became more fierce, males started to become stronger. Weaker blood lines died off.


And this is not at all genetic (even if we take the numbers for true)! Just because it is so doesn't mean it has to remain so. The problem is you're assuming physical weakness is a part of being feminine, as if that is some genetic truth that can never change. Even genes can change, given the right pressures, but there is no evidence that we need to do that. A lot of women have the potential to be a lot stronger than they are. But from a very young age they are told training their bodies and indulging in physically strenuous tasks is "for boys". So of course you see a lot of women weaker than men. Its a self-fulfilling prophesy.

There are lots of flaws in this too. Males and females have similar untapped strength potentials. Unless you're a construction worker or gym bunny, it's unlikely that you've reached your 'genetic peak'. It's likely that most males and females are much weaker than they could be if they started becoming active. Even if you look at the very best Olympians - the difference in speed and strength between males and females is striking. The best women often don't come close to the strongest men, especially in certain sports disciplines (go look at weight lifting records).

Genes can definitely shift and change, but as they are now, male genes promote extreme levels of testosterone compared to women. The innate cellular strength that testosterone gives to men cannot be matched by almost all women. I have read about smallish guys who have been physically overwhelmed by "amazon" like women who raped them, but this is hardly the norm in any way. If you start giving a woman testosterone injections she will androgenize and probably be as strong as most men, but it's a silly debate, because there is no reason to suspect that Rey/Ren are any different from your average male and female human, even though it's science fiction.


And since Rey and Kylo Ren were using weapons, and non in a wrestling melee, what is the problem?

Okay but at the end it was really direct strength for strength. There are very few men who would ever be stuck in a lock like that with a young woman. I can tell you now that most guys will overwhelm her in seconds. It's the fact that she's a 'jedi' that makes this a non-issue for me. I have no doubt that a female and male Jedi are the same in every way.


Look, resorting to (questionable) biology isn't an answer anyway. You can, and do, see justifications for things like rape, sexual harassment, and beliefs on female intelligence based on "biology". But as a society we firstly do not let the "laws of the jungle" rule us, and secondly, aren't much beholden to them anyway.

But the rules of the Jungle are entirely appropriate in a physical fight to the death. When Ren and Rey fight then that's all that counts in exactly the same was as when two lions or two rabbits fight to the death.


Where was your outrage when the more slight Luke was able to battle the much more physically imposing Vader, then? Or, indeed, Yoda matching Palpatine strength for strength?

When the Force comes into it, nothing else matters. Yoda could probably kill whole armies of men.


Why don't you insist that only the biggest, strongest men be shown as winning physical fights, since "using a weapon" is somehow reason to say that those instances of women abusing men should count for less? And why not use the same standard for naming our leaders? The man who can swat away physical challenges gets to lead, right? After all, some animals do it, so we should too...

Hate to break this to you but we are animals. We are mammals. In many ways we have not outgrown any of our primitive ideals. Why do you think our 'gods' are sports stars and movie stars? Fitness, strength, beauty... those are what mammals respect. I don't agree with this aspect of humanity but it's true - people still dominate weaker people (physical, mental, monetary etc) in every sphere of life. We're a competitive, relentless species with much less compassion than we pretend to have.

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Star Wars : The Force Awakens review (spoiler free) - 17/12/2015 09:18:26 AM 2165 Views
Love your review! I'm seeing it tomorrow night at 9pm. Can't wait! *NM* - 18/12/2015 01:20:16 AM 714 Views
Some (relatively spoiler free) thoughts - 18/12/2015 12:27:22 PM 1255 Views
I pretty much agree with most of that. - 18/12/2015 01:05:16 PM 1173 Views
Agreed, Driver did a great job..... - 19/12/2015 05:46:44 AM 1026 Views
Replies and spoilers - 18/12/2015 03:04:37 PM 1114 Views
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Re: Replies and spoilers - 21/12/2015 06:31:54 PM 1329 Views
The books... - 21/12/2015 09:05:28 PM 1100 Views
Re: The books... - 22/12/2015 03:12:52 AM 1031 Views
In general agreement ** potential Spoilers ** - 19/12/2015 06:06:23 AM 992 Views
There are books? - 19/12/2015 11:19:07 AM 1057 Views
Re: There are books? - 19/12/2015 05:41:45 PM 1096 Views
So Darth Plagieus might still be in? Sweet. - 20/12/2015 04:44:21 AM 974 Views
Palpatine's master? - 20/12/2015 02:25:45 PM 975 Views
I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 09:47:16 PM 996 Views
Re: I mean the novel of that name. - 22/12/2015 10:05:49 PM 1083 Views
Yeah, I think we're talking about the same one. - 24/12/2015 12:05:57 AM 983 Views
Journey to Star Wars: The Force Awakens - 19/12/2015 06:07:16 PM 1076 Views
I don't think any of that had to be explained. - 19/12/2015 12:16:07 PM 960 Views
I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 19/12/2015 08:22:21 PM 1077 Views
Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 06:04:43 AM 1134 Views
Re: Some thoughts about the Force... - 20/12/2015 08:06:40 PM 939 Views
Re: I'm more or less in complete agreement (spoilers) - 20/12/2015 10:07:36 AM 1054 Views
Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:00:32 PM 1208 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 18/12/2015 01:11:30 PM 1073 Views
You're making me reply to two posts - 18/12/2015 03:29:23 PM 1087 Views
The death (spoilers) - 22/12/2015 10:30:05 PM 1040 Views
Re: You're making me reply to two posts - 29/12/2015 05:24:39 AM 1081 Views
Re: Also, SPOILER thoughts. - 29/12/2015 05:19:54 AM 1036 Views
I have tickets for tonight - 18/12/2015 04:47:17 PM 1031 Views
Arbrams impressed me(spoiler free) - 19/12/2015 05:17:42 AM 1155 Views
'Revenge of the Sith' (3rd prequel) was actually a decent movie - 18/12/2015 10:46:52 PM 1072 Views
They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 18/12/2015 11:38:36 PM 1016 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 12:19:10 AM 1167 Views
Well - 19/12/2015 05:53:56 AM 987 Views
Re: They were all good. Internet geeks suck. - 19/12/2015 07:46:06 AM 1176 Views
people forget they were kids movies *NM* - 19/12/2015 01:17:10 AM 695 Views
Yeah, people take the whole 'Star Wars' thing too seriously - 19/12/2015 02:59:29 AM 1073 Views
BTW, Daniel Craig is totally forgiven for Spectre. He was a Stormtrooper (spoilers for role) - 18/12/2015 11:40:44 PM 970 Views
Yip that's true *NM* - 19/12/2015 07:46:59 AM 669 Views
And Simon Pegg was the alien who ran the trading post Rey always went to *NM* - 20/12/2015 02:30:59 PM 774 Views
I got the impression he was actually her boss or contractor - 28/12/2015 12:48:48 PM 1120 Views
Pretty much... - 29/12/2015 12:08:58 AM 1034 Views
Absolutely, yes *NM* - 29/12/2015 01:54:52 PM 727 Views
Just saw it! Holy shit, shit, shit, shit.....it was amazing. - 19/12/2015 05:38:44 AM 1036 Views
Loved it (Spoilers) - 19/12/2015 06:16:54 AM 999 Views
Fantastic characters, great entertainment, no originality, no logic - 29/12/2015 03:33:43 AM 1035 Views
Your Mom has no originality or logic! *NM* - 29/12/2015 11:39:41 AM 720 Views
JJ Abrams should be able to do better than my Mom - 30/12/2015 04:20:54 AM 958 Views
I gave it a B+ overall but I think the characters are its weak spot - 29/12/2015 05:08:15 PM 889 Views
JJ Abrams' movies are character-driven, Lucas' movies are plot-driven - 30/12/2015 04:38:49 AM 947 Views
Lucas has created some of the most iconics chacters in movie history ? - 31/12/2015 02:29:02 PM 945 Views
So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 10:11:01 AM 1034 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 07:10:56 PM 1350 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 30/12/2015 09:24:08 PM 992 Views
Re: So, Rey (Possible Spoilers ahead) - 31/12/2015 04:58:24 PM 945 Views
It was fun, and I look forward to the next ones, but can't say I was that wowed. - 30/12/2015 09:26:10 PM 989 Views
Why is time for female lead and why does the lef think subtraction is the answer to inequality? - 04/01/2016 01:37:37 PM 813 Views
Because the six other movies had zero female Jedis of any importance? - 04/01/2016 05:58:25 PM 1030 Views
Just another check the box movie, then - 04/01/2016 06:02:41 PM 912 Views
Oh, come on. You're really going to complain just because they had a woman and a black guy? - 04/01/2016 11:48:52 PM 1011 Views
They are talking abou tmakin ght Gunslinger black - 05/01/2016 02:05:36 PM 938 Views
Yeah, Star Wars is just part of the larger trend. It can't be viewed in a vacuum (pun intended). - 05/01/2016 02:38:34 PM 909 Views
That's not really what I said, you'll note. - 05/01/2016 07:48:08 PM 1116 Views
I don't think it was Disney's business acumen. - 06/01/2016 06:59:46 PM 1189 Views
Wow. That's... sad. - 06/01/2016 09:32:37 PM 1028 Views
Re: Wow. That's... sad. - 08/01/2016 03:08:58 AM 1013 Views
I am noit sure how well that 7-12 girl demographic will work in merchandising - 08/01/2016 06:30:47 PM 1008 Views
Your premise is entirely wrong. - 12/01/2016 05:53:26 AM 951 Views
Actually, they do have a major character who is Latino. - 12/01/2016 07:15:31 PM 985 Views
The culture wars are just about blacks and feminists. - 13/01/2016 02:31:20 AM 988 Views
All that Paul said - 17/01/2016 05:13:59 PM 1631 Views
LOL - 05/01/2016 06:33:50 PM 942 Views
Funny that people use strwmen arguments to make themsleves feel smart - 08/01/2016 04:22:22 PM 1031 Views
It's not a straw man - 08/01/2016 04:52:03 PM 995 Views
it was story of a father and son so it makes sense to male leads - 04/01/2016 06:59:33 PM 872 Views
Male leads, sure, but it wasn't just the leads. - 04/01/2016 11:28:12 PM 996 Views
Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 05/01/2016 05:55:51 PM 968 Views
I don't see how it makes sense to compare their roles, but Finn is certainly plenty strong. - 05/01/2016 07:38:05 PM 966 Views
Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 02:52:58 PM 970 Views
Re: Finn reacts and is pretty much drug through the story - 06/01/2016 05:50:08 PM 982 Views
I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 02:49:44 PM 957 Views
Re: I don't have an issue with a strong female jedi - 07/01/2016 03:26:34 PM 1003 Views
The reall issue it looks like Luke sucked as Jedi master - 07/01/2016 07:14:31 PM 943 Views
Sorry, no. - 06/01/2016 06:56:09 PM 1017 Views
What a load of crap. - 08/01/2016 10:29:35 AM 915 Views
I only partially agree - 08/01/2016 03:27:10 PM 979 Views
Sorry if science isn't your thing but no what I said is true - 09/01/2016 11:49:15 PM 1085 Views
Re: Was finn as strong as Leia? I would say not even close - 08/01/2016 10:01:16 AM 894 Views
Well said *NM* - 05/01/2016 12:01:25 PM 741 Views
Because it isn't "subtraction"... - 08/01/2016 09:33:24 AM 942 Views
Of course it is - 09/01/2016 10:19:53 PM 928 Views
Okay so about the big bad guy *spoilers* - 05/01/2016 06:27:37 PM 1012 Views
I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:07:26 PM 1004 Views
Re: I may be alone on this, but... - 05/01/2016 08:42:42 PM 929 Views
What speaks against is for me... - 05/01/2016 10:57:44 PM 1349 Views
Re: What speaks against is for me... - 06/01/2016 10:08:35 AM 1079 Views
It's all good stuff, like the first book in a good sci-fi/fantasy trilogy! - 07/01/2016 06:44:45 AM 1034 Views
I think it's pretty obvious... - 17/01/2016 07:43:19 AM 1066 Views

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