I didn't remember much about the specifics... - Edit 3
Before modification by DomA at 24/04/2012 07:51:30 PM
Only that this had little to do with the events in the book and I didn't even think of Jeyne at first.
However, the scene and dialogue immediately made me suspect the girl isn't who she pretends to be. I think even some non-readers may have caught it too. The whole dialogue about noblemen, commoners etc. felt as if coming from someone establishing "an alibi" to hide that indeed before that battle she was on the Lannister side. There's even this line that insidiously seeds the notion in the audience's mind that even for a nobody, a mere camp follower, giving her family name to Robb could mean death. Then the way she asked Robb about his goals and how she reacted when he said he didn't care for the Iron Throne suggested she's a spy.
There are several reasons why they may have chosen to go this way. One of them is that given all the simplifications to the plot now and later, they felt the whole Jeyne storyline as presented in the book would be too transparent. The Red Wedding is after all presumably the centerpiece of the final episode(s) of the next season, they won't want to hint at the trap too soon.
So yeah, I think the girl at some much later point will be revealed as Jeyne, probably earlier on it will be spelled out she was with the Lannister army but her views on lords and war will deflect suspicions.
I think introducing her by establishing an hatred for "the system" could turn out to be quite clever. It does build her rapidly a small capital of sympathy with a modern audience but I doubt it was the main point. The primary motive would rather be manipulate the audience into thinking she can't possibly be a pawn of the Lannisters, that someone with her beliefs/worldview can't be working for any lord to betray another. It ignores the possibility the girl hates lords and their war so much because she's been forced into the games of the lords, but the audience isn't expected to realize this early on.
Her views do not to undermine Robb or the audience's sympathy for him. On the contrary, seducing this girl will provide all sort of little opportunities for Robb to demonstrate he's an honorable man, good ruler, that he would much rather be at peace in Winterfell preparing his seat and his people for winter.
I suspect they decided that her worldview derives from stories of the Free Cities from her mother. Then, because she can work as a healer/surgeon, Tywin Lannister chose her and forced her to infiltrate Robb's side as a spy. She had no choice in the matter - can't say no to one of his orders - and she hates it that because he's a powerful lord he owns her life and can force her to do this. Giving her a Free City lineage explains why she reacts as she does instead of fatalistically as the way things are as a Westerosi commoner might.
And to her Robb is just the same as Tywin Lannister. They're all from the same ilk to her. What she told Robb reflected both her "infection" with ideas from Volantis (in the same episode we saw those - very deceptively as we know - reflected in Quarth, where their rulers aren't lords and they stand up to a Targaryen. It was no coincidence, the two scenes complete one another, and those who've read the books know it's not really as it seems. Don't forget at some point down the line and very soon, the girls' harsh views about Westerosi Lords and monarchy vs. the supposedly more advanced socio-political systems of Volantis and other Free Cities will show the girls's views to be extremely naive), and how Tywin is using her.
They can go two main ways from there (assuming she will truly turn out to be Jeyne). Either Robb will make her fall in love with him - her loathing for him if not for his social status will melt away, but she'll be caught between that and the role of spy in Robb's camp Tywin/her mother are forcing her to play and Tywin will be revealed ultimately as having made ingenious and ruthless use of that relationship by leaking its existence to the Freys, paving the way for the alliance and the Red Wedding. Jeyne would be perceived then as a sacrificed tragic figure for the audience, used and destroyed by Tywin Lannister. Going this way would provide a spectacular demonstration of his machiavellian genius. This would make sense, as when this would be revealed is pretty much when Martin himself have started mining this vein of the populace being fed up with the lords and their wars. Not to mention one of the storylines they'll cover right after this is Tywin coming to Kingslanding, Tyrion's downfall and escape and Tywin's death.
The other way is to make her more ambiguous and villainous. She will seduce Robb on Tywin's orders, and keep hating him as much as she hates Tywin. Tywin's evil genius is still there, the audience just won't have much sympathy for Jeyne who, knowing the outcome of the trap or not beforehand, would still actively mean harm to Robb.
Her introduction scene as a battlefield surgeon opens the door door to the possibility her "love story" with Robb will remain discreet/secret for some time, and they might even spend most of this season without her giving in and actually becoming Robb's lover. For season 2 the audience would understand Robb has fallen in love, but beside conversations and scenes in which the girl's opinion of Robb gradually changes, nothing concrete would happen. This would be convenient if a) they don't want to reveal to the audience who she really is (or that she is a spy) until some point in the next season - for now she'll remain a camp follower around Robb seen only occasionally and b) if they want to play it in such a way that the audience won't get clues of any dealings with the Freys until the Red Wedding, but the writers intend to reveal that the girl is a spy for Tywin much earlier in season 3 and that reports of Robb's interest in the girl gives Tywin's ideas of how to exploit it, starting by orders to the girl to give in and seduce Robb. The audience won't understand what Tywin is really up to. They may even play it out so that the audience believes that the real danger for Robb is to fall into Tywin's trap by renouncing the Frey marriage, and so that by marrying the Frey girl Robb is finally escaping Tywin's trap... only to realize Tywin was far more devious than this.
Making her a surgeon also allowed them to introduce her without going out of their way. As a surgeon her presence in a battlefield scene was natural and simplified the storytelling and saved precious screen time. In a short scene like that, it's established sufficiently why she's there (with an hook to exploit later - they made who she is and why she's a surgeon a bit mysterious but not too suspicious) without the complications of how Jeyne was really introduced and built through behind the scenes events about diplomatic stuff (requiring a lot of useless dialogue exposition on TV) and intricacies of a military campaign they obviously have simplified (in a large part for budget reasons. They can't show the battles, so if they sticked to the detailed campaign from the books the audience would fast get totally fed up with each time having a build-up, a throw of the dice (a fade to black) to decide it, then learning who won and who lost in aftermath scenes. They have no choice to do that to an extent for story progression, but the less of those unseen battles they can have happen and the less "military details without a pay-off" they're forced to introduce the better).
Another advantage of making her a camp follower, like a cook or surgeon (or washing woman or whore - those were other options) is that it makes her "unimportant" and deflects for now the suspicions Jeyne's introduction in the books immediately brought (her appearance as Robb's lover in the books, with her background, immediately raised a red flag.. or a yellow flag anyway).
I think it's way too early to accuse them of catering to political correctness and modern sensibilities about women. To be able to introduce her as a non important camp follower, their options were fairly limited, especially if she really turns out to be Jeyne from the books later on. They could hardly make her a camp whore, and as a surgeon who hates lords it's ironically justified that even though she rather obviously worked in the Lannister army the day before, she's both harmless and too useful to put to kill. Lannister serving women would have been sent their way, or raped (most likely both). Her infuriating speech to Robb was a credible way to make the two characters come in contact, and for Robb to develop an credible interest in her that is more than sheer lust.
The other obvious possibility is that they substituted this girl for Jeyne and perhaps got rid of the ties between Robb's lover and Tywin, or will simplify them by simply making a simple surgeon from Volantis he tasked to infiltrate Robb's camp in the chaotic aftermath of a battle, thus getting rid of all the plot complications including Jeyne and her mother would have brought.
It's not impossible (it won't sound too credible though), but given that this plot will become central to the finale or near finale of the next season, I tend to think the "Jeyne in disguise" option is a bit more likely. They don't have much time to develop this in season 2 itself. Non-readers have very little idea for now of the geography and how the campaign is progressing, they won't see the implications of Robb falling in love with as character like her.
I don't think the character of a female surgeon who hates lords is at odds with Martin's universe. A different yet related role is played by the Silent Sisters - and mercy is a female concept in the religion of the Seven - a surgeon as you point out isn't a very skilled job, nothing like requiring the knowledge of a Maester (and beside, she's a foreigner with different customs). And Martin has other women who are frustrated with the traditional roles (or the fact they were not born a man), including Arya and Brienne, - not to mention Cirsei and in some measure even Asha. Of course, Dany's storyline also exploits some of that to an extent. Having one more hardly changes much of anything. As for her views on lords, they come early (but are explained immediately as "foreign", and we'll see soon what to make of those supposedly more "civilized" Free Cities or the South) but the victimization of the commoners remains a theme exploited by Martin later in the series that builds up to take religious aspects (and finds echo with Mance and co in the North, and with much greater ambiguity and contradictins in the South with Dany earlier than it will on Westeros).
However, the scene and dialogue immediately made me suspect the girl isn't who she pretends to be. I think even some non-readers may have caught it too. The whole dialogue about noblemen, commoners etc. felt as if coming from someone establishing "an alibi" to hide that indeed before that battle she was on the Lannister side. There's even this line that insidiously seeds the notion in the audience's mind that even for a nobody, a mere camp follower, giving her family name to Robb could mean death. Then the way she asked Robb about his goals and how she reacted when he said he didn't care for the Iron Throne suggested she's a spy.
There are several reasons why they may have chosen to go this way. One of them is that given all the simplifications to the plot now and later, they felt the whole Jeyne storyline as presented in the book would be too transparent. The Red Wedding is after all presumably the centerpiece of the final episode(s) of the next season, they won't want to hint at the trap too soon.
So yeah, I think the girl at some much later point will be revealed as Jeyne, probably earlier on it will be spelled out she was with the Lannister army but her views on lords and war will deflect suspicions.
I think introducing her by establishing an hatred for "the system" could turn out to be quite clever. It does build her rapidly a small capital of sympathy with a modern audience but I doubt it was the main point. The primary motive would rather be manipulate the audience into thinking she can't possibly be a pawn of the Lannisters, that someone with her beliefs/worldview can't be working for any lord to betray another. It ignores the possibility the girl hates lords and their war so much because she's been forced into the games of the lords, but the audience isn't expected to realize this early on.
Her views do not to undermine Robb or the audience's sympathy for him. On the contrary, seducing this girl will provide all sort of little opportunities for Robb to demonstrate he's an honorable man, good ruler, that he would much rather be at peace in Winterfell preparing his seat and his people for winter.
I suspect they decided that her worldview derives from stories of the Free Cities from her mother. Then, because she can work as a healer/surgeon, Tywin Lannister chose her and forced her to infiltrate Robb's side as a spy. She had no choice in the matter - can't say no to one of his orders - and she hates it that because he's a powerful lord he owns her life and can force her to do this. Giving her a Free City lineage explains why she reacts as she does instead of fatalistically as the way things are as a Westerosi commoner might.
And to her Robb is just the same as Tywin Lannister. They're all from the same ilk to her. What she told Robb reflected both her "infection" with ideas from Volantis (in the same episode we saw those - very deceptively as we know - reflected in Quarth, where their rulers aren't lords and they stand up to a Targaryen. It was no coincidence, the two scenes complete one another, and those who've read the books know it's not really as it seems. Don't forget at some point down the line and very soon, the girls' harsh views about Westerosi Lords and monarchy vs. the supposedly more advanced socio-political systems of Volantis and other Free Cities will show the girls's views to be extremely naive), and how Tywin is using her.
They can go two main ways from there (assuming she will truly turn out to be Jeyne). Either Robb will make her fall in love with him - her loathing for him if not for his social status will melt away, but she'll be caught between that and the role of spy in Robb's camp Tywin/her mother are forcing her to play and Tywin will be revealed ultimately as having made ingenious and ruthless use of that relationship by leaking its existence to the Freys, paving the way for the alliance and the Red Wedding. Jeyne would be perceived then as a sacrificed tragic figure for the audience, used and destroyed by Tywin Lannister. Going this way would provide a spectacular demonstration of his machiavellian genius. This would make sense, as when this would be revealed is pretty much when Martin himself have started mining this vein of the populace being fed up with the lords and their wars. Not to mention one of the storylines they'll cover right after this is Tywin coming to Kingslanding, Tyrion's downfall and escape and Tywin's death.
The other way is to make her more ambiguous and villainous. She will seduce Robb on Tywin's orders, and keep hating him as much as she hates Tywin. Tywin's evil genius is still there, the audience just won't have much sympathy for Jeyne who, knowing the outcome of the trap or not beforehand, would still actively mean harm to Robb.
Her introduction scene as a battlefield surgeon opens the door door to the possibility her "love story" with Robb will remain discreet/secret for some time, and they might even spend most of this season without her giving in and actually becoming Robb's lover. For season 2 the audience would understand Robb has fallen in love, but beside conversations and scenes in which the girl's opinion of Robb gradually changes, nothing concrete would happen. This would be convenient if a) they don't want to reveal to the audience who she really is (or that she is a spy) until some point in the next season - for now she'll remain a camp follower around Robb seen only occasionally and b) if they want to play it in such a way that the audience won't get clues of any dealings with the Freys until the Red Wedding, but the writers intend to reveal that the girl is a spy for Tywin much earlier in season 3 and that reports of Robb's interest in the girl gives Tywin's ideas of how to exploit it, starting by orders to the girl to give in and seduce Robb. The audience won't understand what Tywin is really up to. They may even play it out so that the audience believes that the real danger for Robb is to fall into Tywin's trap by renouncing the Frey marriage, and so that by marrying the Frey girl Robb is finally escaping Tywin's trap... only to realize Tywin was far more devious than this.
Making her a surgeon also allowed them to introduce her without going out of their way. As a surgeon her presence in a battlefield scene was natural and simplified the storytelling and saved precious screen time. In a short scene like that, it's established sufficiently why she's there (with an hook to exploit later - they made who she is and why she's a surgeon a bit mysterious but not too suspicious) without the complications of how Jeyne was really introduced and built through behind the scenes events about diplomatic stuff (requiring a lot of useless dialogue exposition on TV) and intricacies of a military campaign they obviously have simplified (in a large part for budget reasons. They can't show the battles, so if they sticked to the detailed campaign from the books the audience would fast get totally fed up with each time having a build-up, a throw of the dice (a fade to black) to decide it, then learning who won and who lost in aftermath scenes. They have no choice to do that to an extent for story progression, but the less of those unseen battles they can have happen and the less "military details without a pay-off" they're forced to introduce the better).
Another advantage of making her a camp follower, like a cook or surgeon (or washing woman or whore - those were other options) is that it makes her "unimportant" and deflects for now the suspicions Jeyne's introduction in the books immediately brought (her appearance as Robb's lover in the books, with her background, immediately raised a red flag.. or a yellow flag anyway).
I think it's way too early to accuse them of catering to political correctness and modern sensibilities about women. To be able to introduce her as a non important camp follower, their options were fairly limited, especially if she really turns out to be Jeyne from the books later on. They could hardly make her a camp whore, and as a surgeon who hates lords it's ironically justified that even though she rather obviously worked in the Lannister army the day before, she's both harmless and too useful to put to kill. Lannister serving women would have been sent their way, or raped (most likely both). Her infuriating speech to Robb was a credible way to make the two characters come in contact, and for Robb to develop an credible interest in her that is more than sheer lust.
The other obvious possibility is that they substituted this girl for Jeyne and perhaps got rid of the ties between Robb's lover and Tywin, or will simplify them by simply making a simple surgeon from Volantis he tasked to infiltrate Robb's camp in the chaotic aftermath of a battle, thus getting rid of all the plot complications including Jeyne and her mother would have brought.
It's not impossible (it won't sound too credible though), but given that this plot will become central to the finale or near finale of the next season, I tend to think the "Jeyne in disguise" option is a bit more likely. They don't have much time to develop this in season 2 itself. Non-readers have very little idea for now of the geography and how the campaign is progressing, they won't see the implications of Robb falling in love with as character like her.
I don't think the character of a female surgeon who hates lords is at odds with Martin's universe. A different yet related role is played by the Silent Sisters - and mercy is a female concept in the religion of the Seven - a surgeon as you point out isn't a very skilled job, nothing like requiring the knowledge of a Maester (and beside, she's a foreigner with different customs). And Martin has other women who are frustrated with the traditional roles (or the fact they were not born a man), including Arya and Brienne, - not to mention Cirsei and in some measure even Asha. Of course, Dany's storyline also exploits some of that to an extent. Having one more hardly changes much of anything. As for her views on lords, they come early (but are explained immediately as "foreign", and we'll see soon what to make of those supposedly more "civilized" Free Cities or the South) but the victimization of the commoners remains a theme exploited by Martin later in the series that builds up to take religious aspects (and finds echo with Mance and co in the North, and with much greater ambiguity and contradictins in the South with Dany earlier than it will on Westeros).