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Like Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers? You expect me to fall for that as easily as General Zod did? Joel Send a noteboard - 09/03/2013 11:14:24 PM

View original postDannymac recently joined us, hopefully he'll enjoy his tenure.
View original postI have to be honest, I have never really understood that whichever direction it went; probably why my SAT Math and Verbal scores were within 20 points of each other. Math is just another language; it simply uses numbers instead of letters, conjugations, declensions etc. instead of addition, multiplication etc. Cryptology is at least as much math as language, even though it primarily deals with the latter, and much the same is true of the dreaded story problems. I am not saying I am some kind of polymath; I suck at pretty much EVERYTHING related to art, can only draw a straight line if you tell me to draw a sin wave, am mediocre at best with foreign languages and have the people skills of a rock (you may have noticed... :blush:) but liberal arts baffling math/natural science whizzes (and the converse) has always baffled ME.

Well I've heard the math/language and also the math->musical composition comparisons but while I acknowledge math is a type of language it's never really seemed to translate haha rdrr to any skill at linguistics or music in me at least.

It is a logical process, just with different premises. I mean, you already do it to some extent: When you see "2X2" what comes to mind? I bet it is the words "two times two" not two pairs of objects. One COULD even say math is a special case of grammar, with its own supplementary set of operational rules, but that might be pushing things. Yes, I am a grammar pusher; the first verb's free.... ;)
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View original postA more relevant case in point: It is not even certain language DOES get into this; evidently Ancient Greeks and Egyptians often mapped numbers to letters, using one symbol set for both and relying on context to clarify which. Pretty common ancient practice, from what I can tell, and much of why numerology has been around so long. You are probably aware scholars STILL debate whether certain OT character strings represent nouns or numbers, because it COULD be either, and the context does not unambiguously reveal which. I am less surprised so many cultures did it then than that so few do it now.

Well, that's definitely outside my zone but I'd speculate ambiguity about a number vs word thing could in some cases be due to that ambiguity having come to take on extra meaning. If someone conducted a survey and had a sample size of 411 when all was done, they might make a crack 'and with 411 you know you're getting information' that might elude a lot of people even today but not 20 years ago, and is likely to totally elude people 2000 years down the road. "We had 314 applicants to the Pie contest, big surprise!" has a certain level of subtle humor that could send a scholar hunting around a million false trails trying to figure out why it wasn't surprising and the person who raises the Pi/Pie thing might be sneered at as stupid.

There's probably a lot more of that in a language with number/letter shared symbols. For all I know the writer might have meant both, because the dual interpretation is what the writer sought to convey. Considering how often we toss around stuff like "I went on the winery tour with Grape Expectations but didn't find it that a peeling, hahaha" I would expect a lot of wit and humor and deep thought to express themselves in that sort of way with number/letter overlap. That's all purely guesswork though.


My impression, which is only that, is that kind of thing happens a lot in the bible, not sure about elsewhere. Some translations explicitly identify amibiguous cases in the historical Prophets (I am thinking of sections in the Samuels and Kings referring to great heroes as "the Three" and "the Thirty," where context could have a great bearing on meaning.)
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View original postHopefully one of our resident Classics and/or Archeological scholars can pop in soon and clarify the matter as much as possible. I, at least, still have far more questions than answers about this, which is much of the fascination, so even the smallest amount of reliable information would be a welcome addition and improvement. Kind of like the guy with the 340,000 year old chromosome (due to my massive mental block with biology. :()

Cladistics and MRCA doens't tend to grab my interest much, I'm afraid. On this matter what I'd mostly like to know is if there was any positional notation, you know, for the vitally important question about whether they could use two dice to great a first and second digit.

It is the great question of our age, perhaps multiple ages, given the age of the dice; the secrets of the universe lie within our reach, yet just beyond our grasp. O^

From what I can tell though, positional notation was virtually unheard of in ancient numbers; they seem to have preferred additive notation, with the extra wrinkle of distinct symbol sets for larger and smaller numbers. One infamous example, courtesy Wikipedia, is that in Koiné (which it seems likely this die used) the number χξς would be understood as χ+ξ+ς, or 600+60+6. Interestingly, Wikipedia further notes that in his early revision of a Latin NT Jerome wrote that "The number 666 has been substituted for 616 either by analogy with 888, the [Greek] number of Jesus (Deissmann), or because it is a triangular number, the sum of the first 36 numbers (1+2+3+4+5+6...+36=666.)" Even then, it seems, the evils of science, or at least the related heresy, math, were corrupting the Holy Church. :[

Regardless, it LOOKS like they could have used multiple dice to generate larger numbers, and perhaps did, but the other dice would have used a completely different symbol set, additively. Another point of interest here is that the ancients generally mapped the digits 1-9 and their multiples of 10 and 100. That means there were 27 possible digits (forcing Koiné to modify three letters for use as numbers,) so a d20 could not contain all of them. Further, even if it held, say, the digits 1-10 and 10-100, it would have to omit any digits >10 that were not multiples of 10. To function as our d20 it would have to be enscribed with the digits 1-10, then the 10 digit followed by the digits 1-9 (or the reverse; by the Commutative Property of Addition it does not matter,) then the 20 digit.

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Ancient d20 Emerges from the Ashes of Time - 07/03/2013 05:23:05 PM 1048 Views
That's amazing. - 07/03/2013 06:44:33 PM 778 Views
Cool. *NM* - 07/03/2013 07:06:43 PM 381 Views
I suppose it isn't too surprising, very darn cool though - 07/03/2013 10:32:37 PM 752 Views
Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. - 08/03/2013 10:29:19 AM 777 Views
Re: Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. - 08/03/2013 03:43:57 PM 661 Views
Tom would probably be our best source on symbols; apparently ancient Egypt had THREE numeric sets. - 08/03/2013 06:24:27 PM 829 Views
Tom probably, maybe Ghav - 08/03/2013 07:29:32 PM 809 Views
Yeah, and maybe more likely to visit the RPGMB. - 08/03/2013 09:59:38 PM 897 Views
The Fortress of Solitude always welcomes guests - 08/03/2013 10:49:59 PM 784 Views
Like Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers? You expect me to fall for that as easily as General Zod did? - 09/03/2013 11:14:24 PM 881 Views
Never hurts to try - 10/03/2013 02:40:19 AM 758 Views
Do or do not.... - 11/03/2013 04:31:46 PM 1015 Views
Re: Do or do not.... - 11/03/2013 08:54:34 PM 753 Views
Re: Do or do not.... - 12/03/2013 02:19:56 AM 1001 Views
Also Tom's remark's on the CMB make it pretty definitely not numerical - 10/03/2013 04:21:55 AM 759 Views
Hmm... actually, that d20 COULD be a "d200." - 11/03/2013 03:39:52 PM 955 Views

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