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Tom probably, maybe Ghav Isaac Send a noteboard - 08/03/2013 07:29:32 PM

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View original postThe place of Euclid when he was also the guys who is most known for discussing basic geometry and the five Platonic Solids, which are the d4, d6, d8, d12, and d20 can't be too surprising that some people there were familiar enough with those shapes to want to use them too, and dice games were already around and widespread. That is just all kinds of cool though.




View original postOnly games, or for divination, random number generators, etc. Hopefully they were smart enough to realize how superfluous the d100 is.

Odds are not favorable to a sign-value notation system as opposed to a positional value notation system thinking to use 2d10 to come up with '42'. I can't recall if they were sign or positional, but I would guess in roman numerals a large value with ten sided dice would be more likely to be created by thinking to paint two dice with a I, II, III, IV, V, X, L, C, D, and M each and adding them up, which wouldn't give you an even spread from smallest to highest value. To recognize how superfluous a d100 is you'd have to have a positional notation system, the base, 10 or otherwise, wouldn't matter. They could do it anyway but it would be a hell of a lot less obvious and sufficiently weird and counter-intuitive that it wouldn't likely show up in casual gaming. If base 6 is your system, you probably would have the 2d10 for 00-99 concept in the games rather than 2-12 bell curve on 7 we use, for instance. If your number system is sign or tally you'd like as not just roll more dice for bigger numbers and shrug off random distribution.


From what I found at Wikipedia just now, evidently ancient Egypt had:

1) A hieroglyphic number set for engraving, with ONLY symbols for 0, 1/2, 3/4 and the powers of 10 through 1,000,000 arranged as nonpositional tallies,

2) hieratic set for papyri, with symbols for each ordinal number AND their multiples by 10, 100 and 1000, and

3) a Demotic set developed in the middle of the last millenium BC, on which I have seen little detail.

The die in the article looks to be inscribed in Greek, which further complicates things because it seems there was both Demotic (Egyptian) and demotic (Greek which has descended as the official language of modern Greece.) To top it all off, I found one journal publication available online claiming Golden Age Greece probably borrowed its number system from Demotic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_numerals
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/egyptTOgreek.html

In the first two systems d100 would still be superfluous, but could not be replaced by two identical d10; each die would need a wholly different symbol set (unless they just said, "screw it: This other d10 is a d10-100 now.";)) It looks very likely, however, that the die in the article uses the third (assuming it is meant to depict numbers, not letters,) and I have no idea how that one worked, so maybe Tom can weigh in and enlighten us.


View original postAs to what the hell they used them for, it is probably fair to note that divination vs game can be fairly vague to the point of irrelevance, ditto teaching and games, since our ancestors knew and practiced the concept of Edu-tainment just as we do. If the things were reasonably cheap to make they probably would end up being used for tons of stuff.

Yeah, it is that speculation that is so intriguing (and I did consider the short road from divination to game, or vice versa.) They could be naming cubes for all we know. I am reasonably confident without checking there is not a "valid" Egyptian name for all combinations of Egyptian hyroglyphs, but then again the Bengals used to have a receiver named Chad Ochocinco, so.... shrugs

Well it is too much for me to ponder, I wouldn't mind knowing which system they were using but once language gets into things my brain shuts down. Gabriel's a classic's guy so he might be able to tell

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Ancient d20 Emerges from the Ashes of Time - 07/03/2013 05:23:05 PM 1033 Views
That's amazing. - 07/03/2013 06:44:33 PM 766 Views
Cool. *NM* - 07/03/2013 07:06:43 PM 374 Views
I suppose it isn't too surprising, very darn cool though - 07/03/2013 10:32:37 PM 742 Views
Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. - 08/03/2013 10:29:19 AM 763 Views
Re: Makes one wonder about the purpose(s) for which the dice were used. - 08/03/2013 03:43:57 PM 642 Views
Tom would probably be our best source on symbols; apparently ancient Egypt had THREE numeric sets. - 08/03/2013 06:24:27 PM 815 Views
Tom probably, maybe Ghav - 08/03/2013 07:29:32 PM 799 Views
Yeah, and maybe more likely to visit the RPGMB. - 08/03/2013 09:59:38 PM 882 Views
The Fortress of Solitude always welcomes guests - 08/03/2013 10:49:59 PM 767 Views
Like Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers? You expect me to fall for that as easily as General Zod did? - 09/03/2013 11:14:24 PM 869 Views
Never hurts to try - 10/03/2013 02:40:19 AM 745 Views
Do or do not.... - 11/03/2013 04:31:46 PM 1004 Views
Re: Do or do not.... - 11/03/2013 08:54:34 PM 744 Views
Re: Do or do not.... - 12/03/2013 02:19:56 AM 983 Views
Also Tom's remark's on the CMB make it pretty definitely not numerical - 10/03/2013 04:21:55 AM 750 Views
Hmm... actually, that d20 COULD be a "d200." - 11/03/2013 03:39:52 PM 940 Views

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