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An informal agreement is probably the way to go then Isaac Send a noteboard - 15/11/2011 03:08:17 AM
If I had been a player I would have argued against it, but in this circumstance I let it pass because 1- I prefer not to penalise players for coming up with something I hadn't planned for and 2- I couldn't be certain it was an objective ruling rather than a desperate attempt to salvage my setup (unlike for example this, which was clearly an attempt to sidestep existing rules and I knew I would have banned in any game, ever.)


Well, I neutered it as best I could so it would only detect purely identical RM's, but as I said in the NB at the time, I was more than half convinced we had mass coppage going on. I didn't actually view it as a rules sidestep, the neutering was to minimize collateral damage if it wasn't the case as my head thought. Such a technique can only mean anything if the Mod's done identical wordings, which I never do and generally discourage... though it did win us the Tower game if you remember, that 'win with the Tower' bit let us run the table even with 3 scum and a SK in a game of 10, ditto game 2. Anyway, I don't encourage such sidesteps but I do consider it to be really more the responsibility yof the Mod to make them impossible by changing up RM wording.

Anyway, I don't think it's particularly unfair, but I generally dislike it because it breaks down the game to something more of a system than, well, a game. Generally speaking, it's my opinion that mafia should be played against the other players, not the game itself.

Incidentally, while I had not planned for coded roleclaims, I had conceived of situations like mass Day 1 roleclaims, and considered the idea of simply telling the scum about the setting, but I judged that would give them an unfair advantage. Instead, I tried to give them hints - first off, the no death messages was intended to encourage fakeclaims more than it was about actually concealing the number of cops - I never expected someone who thought they were a cop to go down without roleclaiming, at which point the cat would be out of the bag, and that likely on Day 1. Second, I gave both scum roles that messed with cop investigations - a Godfather and a Framer - to suggest the possibility that they would come under a lot of investigations. And third, I let them both know about each other's roles from Day 1, so that they would know about that aspect before they had the opportunity to communicate.

Amusingly enough, I was reluctant to replace Kronin because I knew any sub would have knowledge that they had been a Cop, and given the absence of death messages, that would make falseclaiming a cop far more obvious. Evidently, I need not have worried at all :P.

Another mistake I made with this setup is not allowing the Daycops to investigate on Day 1. Investigations would have given the Daycops more confidence to act on Day 1 (You'll notice Isaac and Ranagrande's behaviour on Day 2) and might have helped the generalised Day 1 paralysis. That was really stupid on my part.

Fun detail: Any cop, were he insane or even paranoid, investigating himself would turn up an innocent result. Because CONFOUND.

All the poems were about the setup, incidentally. With a bit of filler thrown in for the fun of additional confusion (the LotR and Diablo references, for example, were thrown in merely because I could :P). And I have no idea what the deal is with the widow's hair or the windows of the wretched stair. It just sounded cool.


It's hard to tell how much impact the poems ultimately had, I suspect they subconsciously clued me in but a lot of that's natural paranoia. Oh, the Titus thread's your turn again :P
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein
King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Game 24, Day 2 - Game has ended Fanatic-Templar - 06/11/2011 06:04:27 PM 1264 Views
I'm actually a bit surprised by the choice of ? Isaac - 06/11/2011 07:34:57 PM 1132 Views
Yes, it was an oversight. He was a townie. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 06/11/2011 08:01:11 PM 468 Views
Voting record: Fanatic-Templar - 07/11/2011 05:25:40 PM 1027 Views
Was he suspicious of anyone yesterday? beetnemesis - 07/11/2011 02:52:26 PM 827 Views
Re: Was he suspicious of anyone yesterday? Isaac - 07/11/2011 03:36:31 PM 986 Views
I think a second look at our poetry is in order too, now we have more of it Isaac - 07/11/2011 12:43:21 AM 961 Views
Re: I think a second look at our poetry is in order too, now we have more of it Kronin al'Sulc - 07/11/2011 12:57:32 AM 847 Views
... and the two things Isaac - 07/11/2011 01:29:31 AM 979 Views
I object to this plan. Fanatic-Templar - 07/11/2011 02:07:35 AM 877 Views
UM UM UM ALERT ALERT ALERT beetnemesis - 07/11/2011 02:59:27 PM 766 Views
Re: UM UM UM ALERT ALERT ALERT Isaac - 07/11/2011 06:23:42 PM 896 Views
Re: UM UM UM ALERT ALERT ALERT beetnemesis - 07/11/2011 08:17:53 PM 799 Views
Wait, would everyone be picking their own two letters? Ah, ok, it's not as dangerous as I thought beetnemesis - 07/11/2011 08:20:32 PM 801 Views
Yes *NM* Isaac - 07/11/2011 08:41:04 PM 458 Views
and follow that to the logical conclusion... Isaac - 07/11/2011 08:40:43 PM 1056 Views
no *NM* Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 06:19:20 PM 494 Views
FT already banned it *NM* Isaac - 07/11/2011 06:20:45 PM 449 Views
I know, I'm just voicing my opinion *NM* Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 06:27:34 PM 380 Views
Besides the ban, I can't see why you'd object Isaac - 07/11/2011 06:44:14 PM 834 Views
errrm, i don't think no is a strong enough word for this *NM* Yunalesca - 07/11/2011 06:58:09 PM 586 Views
? will be replacing Kronin... Fanatic-Templar - 07/11/2011 01:56:08 AM 845 Views
Vote: ? ranagrande - 07/11/2011 02:33:43 PM 1020 Views
Re: Vote: ? Fox and Ravens - 07/11/2011 02:42:15 PM 1139 Views
I'll echo that vote. Stephen - 07/11/2011 06:15:21 PM 1011 Views
He could have just been being polite Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 06:34:30 PM 1183 Views
Very good point, I think a roleclaim from ?, using Kronin's coded roleclaim from yesterday beetnemesis - 07/11/2011 08:22:45 PM 960 Views
? can't decode Kronin's RC, and he wouldn't be allowed to give his own Isaac - 07/11/2011 08:45:50 PM 901 Views
yeah I could go ahead and roleclaim if you want... ? - 07/11/2011 08:56:41 PM 849 Views
No, I don't want you to claim Isaac - 07/11/2011 08:57:47 PM 776 Views
Wait what's the difference? ? - 07/11/2011 09:06:06 PM 813 Views
Re: Wait what's the difference? ? - 07/11/2011 09:06:23 PM 872 Views
Re: Wait what's the difference? Isaac - 07/11/2011 09:09:04 PM 843 Views
I oh got confused. ? - 08/11/2011 02:41:46 AM 897 Views
That is not the case against Kronin. ranagrande - 07/11/2011 09:48:52 PM 705 Views
I don't think substitution is enough Isaac - 07/11/2011 10:25:27 PM 971 Views
is this gonna turn into that game where i got lynched thrice in one game but for ? instead? Yunalesca - 07/11/2011 10:24:15 PM 869 Views
I only allowed the replacement because it was asked on Day 1. Fanatic-Templar - 07/11/2011 10:50:55 PM 794 Views
Anybody else get a chuckle out of this? *NM* Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 06:36:28 PM 437 Views
Ignore the *NM* *NM* Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 06:43:16 PM 433 Views
doubly so... Isaac - 07/11/2011 06:49:05 PM 987 Views
out of what? *NM* Yunalesca - 07/11/2011 07:51:06 PM 424 Views
you have to go into the messege like i said ignore the *NM* prompt *NM* Hieshyn - 07/11/2011 08:54:22 PM 389 Views
Shrug, I think we should still get a roleclaim from ?/Kronin beetnemesis - 08/11/2011 01:51:24 PM 949 Views
I coded a claim above...in response to Isaac I think... ? - 08/11/2011 08:46:07 PM 884 Views
Re: I coded a claim above...in response to Isaac I think... Fox and Ravens - 08/11/2011 09:39:45 PM 945 Views
Re: I coded a claim above...in response to Isaac I think... ? - 08/11/2011 10:18:51 PM 733 Views
Heh. Die? Die! His username makes that weird. *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 08/11/2011 10:55:22 PM 481 Views
eh Yunalesca - 08/11/2011 10:40:47 PM 915 Views
What am I missing here? Fox and Ravens - 08/11/2011 02:32:14 PM 913 Views
Re: What am I missing here? ? - 08/11/2011 08:38:19 PM 924 Views
Semi-RBIRL Isaac - 09/11/2011 05:26:11 AM 835 Views
Vote: Beetnemesis Isaac - 09/11/2011 10:24:06 PM 1019 Views
RC decode Isaac - 09/11/2011 10:35:52 PM 976 Views
Bah, now I have to claim as well ranagrande - 09/11/2011 10:46:37 PM 867 Views
All right, let's proceed sanely then Isaac - 09/11/2011 10:51:12 PM 861 Views
OK, Unvote ranagrande - 09/11/2011 11:23:35 PM 766 Views
decoding: ranagrande - 09/11/2011 11:22:31 PM 903 Views
Would you mind walking through that last step? Isaac - 09/11/2011 11:44:30 PM 869 Views
Not at all. ranagrande - 10/11/2011 12:09:09 AM 867 Views
Okay I confirm your decode then Isaac - 10/11/2011 12:16:22 AM 846 Views
... *NM* beetnemesis - 10/11/2011 01:59:58 PM 532 Views
Woah. Problems. ? - 09/11/2011 11:32:40 PM 799 Views
there is something really fishy going on... *NM* Yunalesca - 09/11/2011 11:34:09 PM 442 Views
Hmm...You mention me a lot in that post...Was that me as ? or me as Kronin? I'm a tad confused. ? - 09/11/2011 11:28:55 PM 996 Views
I'm only talking about you as you are now, Kronin's sub Isaac - 09/11/2011 11:56:19 PM 889 Views
what? Yunalesca - 09/11/2011 11:32:45 PM 690 Views
Re: what? ? - 09/11/2011 11:34:16 PM 737 Views
Actually, there's a strong chance neither is lying Isaac - 09/11/2011 11:53:35 PM 1054 Views
So, what now? Isaac - 10/11/2011 12:49:12 AM 1141 Views
Is or Is Not a Cop (Table) Isaac - 10/11/2011 12:52:52 AM 910 Views
I am not a cop. *NM* ? - 10/11/2011 01:04:38 AM 362 Views
I'm the daycop. Vote: Ranagrande. Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 01:41:59 AM 856 Views
EBWOP: here's the code. Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 01:43:00 AM 720 Views
Decode confirmed Isaac - 10/11/2011 02:08:26 AM 731 Views
Yeah, forgot to say I used Vignere. *NM* Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 02:18:31 AM 434 Views
EBWOP again Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 01:44:04 AM 695 Views
Stand by for the moment Isaac - 10/11/2011 01:49:38 AM 879 Views
Jesus...I REALLY need to read everything before I start posting. Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 01:54:11 AM 881 Views
Add to that the next follow up, that ? might previously have been a Day Cop too Isaac - 10/11/2011 02:04:29 AM 930 Views
It's possible... Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 02:18:02 AM 845 Views
Re: It's possible... Isaac - 10/11/2011 02:30:00 AM 1171 Views
I am a daycop. I found Isaac innocent. *NM* beetnemesis - 10/11/2011 02:02:05 PM 480 Views
We still need you role decode *NM* Isaac - 10/11/2011 06:19:53 PM 402 Views
(I did, in my other message) beetnemesis - 10/11/2011 07:18:43 PM 694 Views
Okay, got ya, decode confirmed *NM* Isaac - 10/11/2011 08:02:55 PM 418 Views
i am a cop Yunalesca - 10/11/2011 07:00:14 PM 711 Views
and my decode Yunalesca - 10/11/2011 07:14:38 PM 885 Views
Yep, decode confirmed *NM* Isaac - 10/11/2011 08:06:16 PM 482 Views
Also, which ? did you check? Isaac - 10/11/2011 08:08:05 PM 790 Views
original ? Yunalesca - 10/11/2011 08:10:30 PM 895 Views
Thanks *NM* Isaac - 10/11/2011 08:11:13 PM 395 Views
Not a cop *NM* Hieshyn - 10/11/2011 11:48:27 PM 650 Views
To the decode-mobile! *plays 60s Batman music* Stephen - 11/11/2011 02:32:06 PM 777 Views
Let's take another look at that poem Isaac - 10/11/2011 01:44:36 AM 967 Views
Ah, I was wondering how come there was suddenly thirty new posts in this thread. Fanatic-Templar - 10/11/2011 03:02:10 AM 697 Views
Hahaha I have to read all of these posts, but FT, you're insane. beetnemesis - 10/11/2011 01:58:01 PM 939 Views
FT IS insane. Turns out I was missing something after all. *NM* Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 09:59:56 PM 382 Views
OK! Here we go: beetnemesis - 10/11/2011 02:23:10 PM 942 Views
Re: OK! Here we go: Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 05:52:25 PM 1007 Views
I think it's time to consider mass RC Isaac - 10/11/2011 08:15:36 PM 792 Views
Sure... ? - 10/11/2011 09:19:49 PM 1045 Views
There's a lot of options still, and decode confirmed by the way Isaac - 10/11/2011 09:48:05 PM 1038 Views
I have been nominated! ranagrande - 10/11/2011 10:30:37 PM 913 Views
Thanks Isaac - 10/11/2011 10:36:36 PM 966 Views
My pleasure *NM* ranagrande - 10/11/2011 10:44:23 PM 372 Views
*NM* ? - 10/11/2011 11:21:59 PM 406 Views
Not saying that that is right of course... ? - 10/11/2011 11:23:23 PM 869 Views
Hmm... ? - 10/11/2011 11:20:50 PM 736 Views
I totally agree. Fox and Ravens - 10/11/2011 09:54:25 PM 788 Views
The wasy I see it, anybody not claiming cop is going to get lynched Hieshyn - 10/11/2011 11:57:24 PM 922 Views
Lying and claiming cop when you can't decode your RC will get you lynched faster. *NM* Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 12:33:05 AM 408 Views
Which I didn't do *NM* Hieshyn - 11/11/2011 02:05:30 AM 442 Views
I know, I know. Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 03:57:51 AM 760 Views
Fox, did you get a response on your investigation? *NM* beetnemesis - 11/11/2011 12:20:12 AM 496 Views
I hadn't performed one yet. Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 12:34:48 AM 866 Views
Isaac Hieshyn - 11/11/2011 02:00:18 AM 967 Views
Or me Hieshyn - 11/11/2011 02:07:10 AM 886 Views
I'd recommend ? ranagrande - 11/11/2011 02:15:24 AM 741 Views
Bring it. ? - 11/11/2011 03:10:14 AM 787 Views
Someone who has already been copped beetnemesis - 11/11/2011 03:57:08 AM 734 Views
I'll investigate ? because yuna's the other daycop Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 04:00:49 AM 745 Views
Wait a minute....I meant that I would be testing it against rana. Not yuna Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 01:39:16 PM 1024 Views
no i'm not, im a normal cop *NM* Yunalesca - 11/11/2011 09:18:23 PM 476 Views
I had everything messed up anyway *NM* Fox and Ravens - 12/11/2011 10:45:54 PM 421 Views
Vote: Beetnemisis/RBIRL Hieshyn - 11/11/2011 02:04:35 AM 813 Views
Hey people sorry for the unexpected RBIRL Stephen - 11/11/2011 11:47:11 AM 973 Views
RBIRL here too. Fox and Ravens - 11/11/2011 01:34:45 PM 733 Views
I'm thinking either Hieshyn or ? beetnemesis - 11/11/2011 04:32:16 PM 883 Views
It kinda seems like Hieshyn and ? are our logical lynch targets, plus Cop (Table) Isaac - 11/11/2011 10:09:52 PM 1087 Views
Fox investigated ? and found him innocent *NM* ranagrande - 11/11/2011 10:41:39 PM 400 Views
Vote: ? ranagrande - 11/11/2011 10:46:43 PM 747 Views
I'm down with voting for ?, as long as everyone is clear on what our night actions should be beetnemesis - 12/11/2011 04:49:53 AM 861 Views
Yeah, that seems logical next step, Vote: ? Isaac - 13/11/2011 02:59:25 AM 1069 Views
mrr, vote ? then *NM* Yunalesca - 13/11/2011 10:27:49 AM 574 Views
Think my vote was on ? already. Stephen - 13/11/2011 04:26:49 PM 871 Views
Vote: ? *NM* beetnemesis - 14/11/2011 02:27:20 AM 518 Views
That should be lynch with yours, so... Isaac - 14/11/2011 03:07:36 AM 804 Views
? Has been lynched Fanatic-Templar - 14/11/2011 03:50:31 AM 958 Views
Game ends. Fanatic-Templar - 14/11/2011 10:25:04 PM 827 Views
Role list: Fanatic-Templar - 14/11/2011 10:26:32 PM 876 Views
Jeeez. Fox and Ravens - 14/11/2011 11:43:47 PM 833 Views
Kronin originally RC as a Tracker so we might have done better if we had been able to continue *NM* Hieshyn - 15/11/2011 12:06:07 AM 416 Views
Not even cause tracker is still the odd man out. Fox and Ravens - 15/11/2011 12:20:17 AM 835 Views
That might have worked but everyone would have had targets Isaac - 15/11/2011 02:20:43 AM 920 Views
Maybe, but I still would have known he was guilty. *NM* ranagrande - 15/11/2011 02:55:43 AM 389 Views
You were paranoid, amusingly enough. Fanatic-Templar - 15/11/2011 02:59:43 AM 842 Views
Ya there was no hope for us *NM* Hieshyn - 15/11/2011 12:04:06 AM 423 Views
YAY! Yunalesca - 14/11/2011 10:48:54 PM 814 Views
Yeah the way I see it, we were doomed before we started. *NM* ? - 14/11/2011 11:53:37 PM 565 Views
Wow. *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 15/11/2011 01:09:28 AM 481 Views
Also I would like to be added to the list of future Moderator Hieshyn - 15/11/2011 12:07:51 AM 701 Views
You'd have first dibs via our order of precedence system Isaac - 15/11/2011 02:05:04 AM 958 Views
Also whoever Mods should probably post a recruitment thread on some other NBs Isaac - 15/11/2011 02:50:02 AM 881 Views
I expect my next game to draw in some new players. ranagrande - 15/11/2011 02:58:59 AM 844 Views
More is better, okay that would be Hieshyn or Beet then, unless ? wants to toss in Isaac - 15/11/2011 03:26:25 AM 825 Views
Nope I'm not ready to mod yet... ? - 15/11/2011 08:29:24 PM 757 Views
hey Yunalesca - 15/11/2011 09:46:28 PM 710 Views
I don't have anything prepared, so if Hieshyn wants it, I'll be happy to go after him beetnemesis - 15/11/2011 03:28:40 AM 853 Views
It's Hieshyn's if he wants it, otherwise I can go next. ranagrande - 15/11/2011 12:40:13 PM 876 Views
I'm not ready to go next Hieshyn - 15/11/2011 02:43:07 PM 951 Views
Aight, I think it's me then. ranagrande - 15/11/2011 03:15:21 PM 717 Views
Re: Aight, I think it's me then. Fox and Ravens - 15/11/2011 04:09:07 PM 915 Views
Deathless Mafia? Is that a thing? SQUEE, Mistborn! *NM* beetnemesis - 15/11/2011 10:15:49 PM 378 Views
If it wasn't a thing before, it is now! *NM* ranagrande - 15/11/2011 10:53:14 PM 379 Views
ooooh Yunalesca - 15/11/2011 11:27:26 PM 754 Views
You've got a week to read the last 2....GO, GO, GO!! *NM* Fox and Ravens - 15/11/2011 11:43:21 PM 402 Views
hah! i could read both in two days Yunalesca - 16/11/2011 07:56:58 PM 784 Views
Just for you, the game shall be spoiler free! *NM* ranagrande - 16/11/2011 12:12:24 AM 376 Views
Speaking of which, any timeline yet? Isaac - 19/11/2011 07:25:11 PM 778 Views
Sounds fantastic Stephen - 16/11/2011 12:10:06 AM 923 Views
That could also be fantastic. *NM* ranagrande - 16/11/2011 12:13:29 AM 426 Views
I AM ALL SORTS OF PUMPED. *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 16/11/2011 09:11:38 PM 448 Views
Though may or may not actually be playing... *NM* Kronin al'Sulc - 16/11/2011 09:11:58 PM 381 Views
Before the next game starts, we probably need to discuss RC coding Isaac - 15/11/2011 02:15:27 AM 1055 Views
Yeah, I really didn't like that idea. Fanatic-Templar - 15/11/2011 02:58:21 AM 1142 Views
An informal agreement is probably the way to go then Isaac - 15/11/2011 03:08:17 AM 961 Views
Although really, it's the same as if in IRL everyone just wrote down their role on a piece of paper beetnemesis - 15/11/2011 03:28:00 AM 865 Views
Yeah, I don't think it warrants being banned (hence why I didn't), but I don't like it. *NM* Fanatic-Templar - 15/11/2011 03:37:59 AM 467 Views
Re: An informal agreement is probably the way to go then Fanatic-Templar - 15/11/2011 03:36:38 AM 850 Views
Re: An informal agreement is probably the way to go then Isaac - 15/11/2011 03:43:39 AM 1196 Views
I really didn't like it either. Kronin al'Sulc - 16/11/2011 06:20:33 PM 839 Views
I liked my plan: Random voting ftw! *NM* Fox and Ravens - 16/11/2011 06:29:07 PM 420 Views
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