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The big thing GURPS did was let you apply your imagination to things requiring it. Joel Send a noteboard - 10/12/2010 01:23:39 PM
To Windows, anyway; equating Windows and DOS does the latter a great disservice, IMHO.

No analogy being perfect but I tend to view AD&D as the MS-DOS, 2nd ED as Windows 3.x -way more players, starting to get somewhat mainstream, some noticeable improvements, lots of issue, Win95/97 as the D&D 3.0 equivalent, big improvements and much more common among the populace, and 3.5 as XP, a highly funcitonal system followed by a less functional one, e.g. WinVista as D&D 4th Ed.
Great RPG, or the GREATEST RPG? Oh, oh....

I generally feel the 'best system' is the one that allows for the best gameplay, and generally as a GM I'm looking for one that many people already know, that totally newbs can learn fairly quickly and will not have to forget entirely if they move and wish to join another group, and so on. GURPs just doesn't do that so well, it's also the kinda Linux to D&D's Windows or DOS. If I find a group where most people know GURPS and the others want to learn, great, I'd say the same for any system, but in general, if someone ask me to run something with a newer group or where the inclusion of new or short term players is probable, I'm gonna go with D&D 3.5, I'm not a big 4.0 fan but I'd run that before going to an alternate system like GURPs or Palladium or White Wolf. Now, White Wolf is probably the easiest major system to teach new players but there are a fair numbe rof smaller ones, like Warhammer's various RPGs, which tend to allow quick generation and easy play, so even if I was running a one shot or short tem campaign I'd rather go with those than GURPS, and any long campaign I'm likely to go with D&D's most recent incarnations, at least for fantasy, outside of the swords and sorcery stuff I'm fairly amenable to using GURPs but I'd probably pick appropriate to the setting, Shadowrun for Cyberpunk, Palladium Rifts for cheezy high-tech post-apocalyptic, etc.

Crossovers have always appealed to me even if I've seldom had the change to experience them (in large part because of the kind of gameworld specific rules GURPS goes out of its way to avoid) so one all encompassing rule set is very attractive. So many things even in a brief skim of AD&D 3.0 reminded me of GURPS that, to borrow your analogy, comparing the two is like comparing Win95 to '80s era UNIX: Sure, Windows does a lot better, because coming along a decade later allowed it to provide all kinds of functionality that simply wasn't possible in the '80s, not to mention benefiting from things the other system innovated.
All that is why I've played a lot more AD&D 2nd ed. even though I strongly prefer GURPS and consider it a vastly superior system for both flexiblity and realism. It doesn't really have a steep learning curve, as such, but it's steep at the start and then plateaus. It's easier now, I think, as skills and character points have become more common (skimming the AD&D 3rd ed. rules seemed VERY familiar.... ;)) It's the only system I know where you can spend hours creating a character (I've spent whole evenings on mages, because of the spell system, but it makes a lot more sense to me than AD&Ds did; BUILDING a grimoire makes remembering what's in it much easier). Once players get past character creation though it almost plays itself, which is the idea; it's pretty realistic, lends itself to any imaginable environment and doesn't require investing in tons of books and dice.

Well, D&D regularly gets bitched at for the books thing, and that was fairly legit in 2nd Ed, and early 3rd, not because of book number but for new books making an incompatible or redundant hash out of the old, new equipment, abilities etc making the old ones useless. THey stopped doing so much of that and started realizing, sort of like the Pathfinder break of has, that you keep everything new compatible and on par and emphasize flavor and campaigns. I like the premade stuff even if I don't run it much, it can be adapted or yanked out for emergencies. The 3.5 era stuff, here's a new prestige class or three, a new character class, a few new spells and bits of equipment, lots of fluff, but unlike previous eras it wasn't "Here THE New class/race/etc." that makes all others inferior. They weren't over-powered plus they were pretty standardized, if a new class came out, it didn't use its own nearly unique system you had to learn for it just to make a wild guess as to whether it was a total gamebreaker because it was standardized, a player who picked it up could just hand you a photo-copy of the 3 or 4 pages that had everything, and you knew it had been play-tested.

Forgive me for saying so, but it seems like the simplest way to avoid that problem is to do away with classes altogether and just have people give their characters whatever "class" they want by building the appropriate skill set from the same pool of character points all characters get. You don't have to playtest it much for balance because it's inherently balanced by the point system. Having classes AND character points seems like the worst of both worlds (part of what was wrong with 2nd ed. proficiency slots being a function of class as well as intelligence; everyone but fighters got screwed in WPs, and they got screwed in NWPs). Not only that, but GMs can create their own class templates in lieu of or as an alternative to published ones.
My experience was, ironically, the opposite of yours: I knew GURPS, most of my friends did, and we could usually indoctrinate newbs quickly, but finding some poor dumb SOB to RUN it was nigh impossible (and I lived in Austin, Steve Jacksons global HQ). For a GM GURPS is often a hideously complex nightmare, because while players don't need to know every obscure rule created for every conceivable situation through months of laborious playtesting, the GM does. Unless he's very experienced with both games AND GURPS in particular he'll spend lots of time flipping through a 256 page Basic Set rulebook trying to remember where he saw that one rule (pterodactyl jousting, was that in the Combat Rules, the Advanced Combat Rules, the Mounted Combat Rules or the Flying Combat Rules... wait, was it in the text, or a sidebar... wait, could someone just shoot me now, please? :cries: ) Get a GM who knows his stuff and you're usually OK; in a medieval setting you can just toss a newb Dai Blackthorn or the pre-gen fighter, 'cos stats and skills are pretty intuitive. On the other hand, even if he's played GURPS a lot, if he hasn't run it a few times it's gonna be a long night....

Yeah, my buddy Ron who was my prime DM for D&D 3rd ed when that came out was a playtester for Steve Jackson, he didn't run GURPS but lots of those smaller little games he puts out, I have few negative things to say on that score. He had the GURPS books and he and one of the others kept trying to get me to learn the system in detail for that very end - I can run those kind of horribly complex systems - problem was I was still to new to running anything at all back then to want to do it. I've found that I can better apply that complexity knack elsewhere too, and more effectively, hand me a new player and I can spew them out an upgunned character sheet where all their spells are printed out in neat format and pass them an appropriate number of colored paper clips (i.e. red for 1st level spells, green for 2nd etc) to just mark their spells. Random example but I find focusing that on setting up the newbs and spewing out a complex detailed plot and background is a better use of my attentions then keeping track of the 5 jillion little 'realistic' details of GURPS.

Classic GURPS commentary: Biomechanical dimensional analysis shows that the natural frequency of leg oscillation varies as the inverse square root of leg length, but the natural length of oscillation varies as the length; putting the two together, movement speed is proportional to the square root of length, which for a given build is proportional to the square root of overall body dimension. Now that's all great, and yeah I do like that sort of thing, but when you get around to it that sort of thing is no more pertinent to gaming then physics is lightsabers and enjoying Return of the Jedi, with the right group that sort of thing is fine but most of the time, with most players, nope, and I try to make my game appeal as broad as possible. I'd just rather spend an hour pumping out a detailed setting map then brushing up on how height effects speed via a stride modifier.

But that's precisely the point: Because the playtesters have already researched and balanced all that stuff for you you don't HAVE to spend time on it to incorporate it into your games. You don't have to incorporate most of it, in fact, but if you choose to do so you can, and it doesn't become a hideous time sink. That liberates the GM to concentrate on creation instead of mechanics without sacrificing any realism or detail. If you need or want a rule to cover a given scenario it probably already exists in a more realistic and balanced form than you could produce without a lot of work. Your analogy applies again: Once you know any system all the mechanics fade into the background when not in active use; the difference is that GURPS has a lot MORE of that detail if you DO use it, and you're not obligated to use it even if the need arises. Again, that's why there's Advanced Combat for people who want to diagram every position, orientation and action, plus Basic Combat for people who just want to roll a few dice and move on again (plus an optional "flesh wound" rule for people who want the kind of combat intensive campaigns that spell quick death with the average 10 point HT in the standard rules).
It's still the only system where I can team my Bale sorcerer up with Captain Kirk and Billy the Kid to go fight Doctor Doom, and handle it pretty realistically (to the extent you can with something like that). I've got all the dice I need in my Axis&Allies set, several times over, and the only book I HAVE to buy is the Basic Set, though worldbooks are obviously helpful if you have an established setting in mind. Put it this way: When Wizards releases something to replace my twenty year old copy of GURPS: The Prisoner you let me know. ;)

D&D's focused on the Sword and Sorcery bit, it does have decent rules, like modern D20, to cover that sort of set up, but my stance is pretty simple, I could run a surreal moment on "The Island" just as well with almost any system, though in fairness the way my style runs these days it would tend to feel far more the Simpsons Parody thereof, by all accounts my games have a lot more Terry Pratchett then Richard Matheson of late. I don't really need a rulebook with the bubbles, or a system that lets me convert it easy, I can just decide how relatively hard the thing should be and improvise it. Gurps does do a good job as a generalist but heck, individual system tailored to a genre just do better. Want sci-fi? Go Traveller, want modern-ish supernatural? White Wolf or Beyond the Supernatural, there's a game for every genre, and the flavor and rules and such are usually better setup for it.

Flavor, yes; rules, not necessarily. I can't speak to how well 4th ed. GURPS does it; to be honest, from what I've seen of Character Books, Gamemaster Guides and the like it seems like they've gone more in the direction of TSRs "let's see how many accessories we can sell" model. Comparing GURPS 3rd ed. to its contemporaries usually left the latter rather wanting, IMHO. That's before taking into account crossovers, which most other systems can't even begin to handle without a LOT of GM work that shouldn't be necessary.
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The big thing GURPS did was let you apply your imagination to things requiring it. - 10/12/2010 01:23:39 PM 833 Views
I generally homebrew off D&D :p. - 03/12/2010 06:19:48 AM 594 Views
It is one of the better ones, surely. - 10/12/2010 02:08:29 PM 696 Views
Re: It is one of the better ones, surely. - 10/12/2010 06:38:51 PM 567 Views

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