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Re: Random query, not really worth making a thread about: Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/04/2025 12:33:03 AM

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What do you think, all else aside, of the show's apparent (I'm not sure if they ever say it explicitly) decision to make all five of the Emond's Fielders ta'veren instead of just the three in the books?

It's not something I hugely care about one way or the other, but I think it makes more sense for all five to be ta'veren-level important to the Pattern. Egwene and Nynaeve's discoveries in the Power seem at least as important as Perrin's contributions, though I suppose Nynaeve's advances in Healing are much more important in the long term and much less important in regard to the Last Battle.

ETA: I know this would have significantly complicated things in the books given the ta'veren bond, but just putting those narrative difficulties aside, I'm curious about your thoughts.


I think it is simply because they have no clue what "ta'veren" really is, and they can't stand the idea of male characters having something special that female characters don't.

What it boils down to, is that the ta'veren exist to shake up the established Pattern, by breaking down the institutions and artificial barriers to unity and cooperation against the Shadow. The job of ta'veren is to cut across the lines of nation, class and prior loyalties to bring different people together. Notice that the entourages of Mat & Perrin are very mixed in the latter books. Mat, through the Band, is giving the sort of men who are willing to come together to fight the good fight, a means to do so, despite the messed-up nature of their own homelands which would normally be their avenue of military service, at the time they joined the Band. Perrin does something similar with Ghealdan and his own Two Rivers retainers, plus the people Rand sends with him. And both of them make unorthodox connections with the Seanchan, arguably the most powerful military force outside of Rand's personal alliance.

This is the difference between Mat & Perrin and the three female leads. The ta'veren create new power bases, new alliances and associations, that reach across old barriers. The girls, on the other hand, work very much along the existing lines of authority and through existing institutions. Their role is reform, while the ta'veren are the demo/construction end of things. As radical as the policy changes introduced by Elayne and Egwene are in their institutions, they are still done through existing offices and powers. Elayne is a Queen of Andor and an Aes Sedai. While the combination is unique, neither title is. Likewise for Amyrlin Seat or Queen of Malkier/Yellow Ajah Aes Sedai/advisor to the Queen of Andor/Wisdom of Emond's Field. It's also why Lan isn't ta'veren, regardless of how important his role is - because he's using established loyalties and alliances to lead men to Tarwin's Gap. By contrast, when the story began, there was no Dragon Reborn, no Car'a'carn of the Aiel, or Coramor of the Sea Folk, there was no Lord of the Two Rivers or liege lord of Ghealdan, there was no Captain General of the Band of the Red Hand. While the boys both accrue prior titles, as the King of Illian, the Prince of the Ravens and whatever Saldaeans might call the heir-consort to their own crown, those are the offices that have the least to do with their story arcs or missions, and ones to which they pay the least attention.

The way ta'veren powers seem to work is not by compelling people to do things differently, but by helping them find their truest self or best path, giving them a way through the walls of institutions and social constructs and their own choices, which hem them in, and block those paths. We see that, for instance, in Rand's meetings with Elayne and Bashere. Rand and Elayne are probably the two personalities most similar in their weird little relationship quartet, and they have a lot of attitudes and views in common, but the gulf of social status and attitudes might never have brought them together, and meanwhile the connections and status Elayne gains by the end makes her an excellent candidate for CiC of the Last Battle, which makes her a really good person to link up with Rand. So ta'veren brings them together, not by casting a love spell on them, but by making them understand on an emotional level that this is a very compatible partner. He spends extended time with Aviendha & Min, so they can work that out themselves, but Elayne & Rand might not otherwise have found a way to get to know one another. Similarly with Bashere, who has a shit-ton of other responsibilities and obligations, and if he can't kill Taim, he might as well get home to ready Saldaea and so forth. But somehow, some way, the Pattern made him realize that Rand is the REAL battlefield against the Dark One and by helping this guy out, Bashere can best serve his true vocation - protecting the world from the Shadow.

The big problem in WoT is communication and that is what the ta'veren are there to fix - they step into the gap and make up for thousands of years of building problems with the communication. The girls, on the other hand, use the existing channels of communication to send new messages.


With the show, they clearly have no idea what ta'veren is really all about, (even if I'm wrong about it) they just wanted to get their equality and representation shit out there, without thinking too hard about it.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Season 3, episode 5 - 29/03/2025 02:00:46 AM 87 Views
Random query, not really worth making a thread about: - 30/03/2025 06:02:47 PM 21 Views
Re: Random query, not really worth making a thread about: - 01/04/2025 12:33:03 AM 25 Views
Interesting theory. Thanks for the response. *NM* - 01/04/2025 04:43:11 PM 2 Views

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