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Interesting. I might have to rewatch to fully judge, but not sure I agree. Legolas Send a noteboard - 12/01/2024 11:38:31 PM

View original postGoT's early seasons might have been good at personal drama, but they were crap at politics and worldbuilding. They get a pass on a lot of that, because they were cribbing off a better developed story, and a lot of what they did not develop was arguably stuff better left out, but they used that as an excuse to cut away from the source material a lot and almost never for the better. It's pretty plain in hindsight, they missed a lot of the character stuff that was going on, and had no interest in humanizing the characters who were not their favorites.

Or at least, I'm not sure that the differences you describe are due to HotD being written better, rather than just because it inherently has a more subtle plot, that's more focused and hence permits more depth in some regards. Though of course that's still a good enough reason for preferring it over GoT, so fair enough there.

I might have to both reread and rewatch to fully assess, but the way I remember it, given the inevitable constraints of adapting such long novels into television seasons, I don't recall many bad calls in what they cut - and I do absolutely think they changed some things for the better. Cersei is the most obvious case - in the books she doesn't get any PoVs until the fourth book iirc, and when she does, it's disappointing as she's depicted as almost cartoonishly self-centered and incompetent, even in her own PoV chapters. GoT Cersei (again, early seasons - haven't even seen the later ones) is definitely an improvement over the book version. You make a distinction between the personal drama that they did well and the politics/worldbuilding they didn't do so well - but in those books, the personal drama and the politics are pretty much the same thing, aren't they? King Robert's murder, Ned Stark's downfall, the Red Wedding, Daenerys' and Viserys' early storyline, they're all politically crucial events that happen because of the personalities of the leaders involved and their petty desires, not because of any great political theory.

And as for worldbuilding, honestly, how much worldbuilding is there in HotD? It's only due to its being a spinoff of GoT that it can expect viewers to get all sorts of things about the setting without being told explicitly. As a prior books fan, it's always hard to judge if the worldbuilding in GoT was sufficient or not, as I didn't need it - but they tried (and their genius title sequence helped).


View original postAnd even in the "good" seasons, the dialogue often pandered to the viewer, and things were done for 21st century sensibilities, not in the interest of maintaining any kind of consistency. These were the seasons that made me realize what the feminists had been whinging about all this time with objectification and violence against women. When HotD wants to make a point about violence against women, they show how the society is set up so that even a sympathetic, well-meaning man like Viserys can perpetuate it, when he kills his wife to save their kid. When GoT wants to depict abuse or exploitation of women, they make sure to get some tits out, and it's generally done by OTT evil or brutish characters which allows the viewer to see that kind of overtly menacing figure as the problem. Most people come away from GoT thinking Joffrey or Cersei or (unfortunately) Catelyn or Sansa is the problem, or that if Ned or Robb had been a little bit smarter, everything would have been hunky-dory. HotD makes it clear that there are grounds for both sides' positions and the problem is the whole system, that its priorities and hierarchies are what bring on these problems. If any one individual is responsible for the civil war, it's Viserys, who comes across as generally benevolent and well-meaning. GoT does nothing to get across that message, and it's incredibly nihilistic. HotD doesn't have the supernatural struggle that will helps provide the counterpoint to the political cynicism, but at least it's not shitting all over that aspect, as GoT did from the first (ITB, we got Waymar Royce facing the Others bravely, and the recognition that he was boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch; on the show he is whacked horror-movie style, and like with a WoT character, you have to extrapolate character for him based on the books). GoT was addicted to shocks, and was sadistic toward the characters, such as by showing how evil Littlefinger was and how he was going to betray Ned, or by piling up happy stuff right before the Red Wedding. HotD still cares about its characters to find humanity even when people are absolutely wrong. Things like Aemond killing Lucerys, Alicent's plotting for her PoS son, or Rhaenyra's conception of her sons, all make you understand the logic of the characters, without glossing over how it's causing harm. Meanwhile, what is Littlefinger or Varys actually after on GoT? The former just seems to like messing things up for shits and giggles, on the assumption that he will always win, and latter, in hindsight, seems to be inexplicably loyal to whichever side has Tyrion on board and is most likely to listen to Tyrion, even as Tyrion himself goes from failure to failure, from season 3 onward, while the show keeps treating him as if he has been very smart & successful the whole time.

My favourite thing about HotD is similar to yours it seems - the tragedy and realism of the slow build towards civil war, most particularly the personal relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent. Loved that big family dinner scene late in the season, where you can still see their lingering affection for each other despite the increasingly cut-throat politics between their respective camps, with Viserys caught in the middle. Though the bit with Alicent misunderstanding Viserys' deathbed comments was pretty lame (or, to quote a meme I saw on the topic, "Be so real, Alicent!".

But again, I don't think I agree with the juxtaposition - for one, HotD has some of GoT's infamous 'sexposition' too, like the creepy Larys stuff or the even more creepy scenes between teenage Rhaenyra and Daemon. And (though yes, here too it's tough to remember precisely how much was in the show and how much I only know from the books) while Joffrey, the Mountain and a few others are depicted as downright psychopaths without even Aemond's limited redeeming qualities, the motivations of the Lannister leaders Tywin, Jaime and Cersei, or those of the other leading figures make perfect sense, they're just in a different political background. Littlefinger and Varys, fair enough, those are a lot murkier - but honestly, they are in the books too, that's not really the show writers' fault.

GoT is the story of a political free for all due to the downfall of House Targaryen 15-ish years earlier, HotD is the story of an internal civil war within the House in a period in which it still had an iron grip on Westeros, so very different situations in which you naturally see different things - but both shows have some top notch writing and acting, imho.


View original postTo put it another way, GoT's adaptational approach compares to a supermarket tabloid, versus HotD's objective investigative journalism. One is only interested in the most lurid and sensational version of the story they can squeeze out and will happily omit or bury anything that doesn't fit, while the other helps you make up your own mind about the situation, without taking sides or picking favorites.

Yeah, I see what you mean but I figure it's more a matter of the plot the respective shows dealt with, than of a difference in the writers' approach as such. But I suppose we should see more evidence in either direction in the next season of HotD, when they move from slow build-up to open war and big dragon battles... let's see how the shows compare after that.
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