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Re: I'll chew... entyti Send a noteboard - 14/08/2023 10:56:15 PM

I don't think anorexia, bulimia and BIID have that much to do with each other to begin with... though indeed you often see the comparison to BIID as gender confirmation surgery involves removal of perfectly healthy body parts (though not all trans people take that step), just like people with BIID express a desire for, so if doctors agree to do that in the one case, why not in the other. I think the big difference there is simply in the nature of the desire - one is a rational enough desire (even if until quite recently it was an impossible one), the other very much isn't. Now that medical science does allow one to physically change one's gender, albeit still imperfectly and at a cost, I see no rational reason to block it.

Well, as I said, they seem to share a root of being a type of body dysmorphia. Perhaps you disagree, and that's fine. I don't claim this as known fact, but simply an association that I (and others) am making. Though I doubt there is enough evidence to say one way or the other, and we'll have to agree to disagree. Welcome to complex systems

You stated that one is rational enough. I'd ask that you say more on that, as I don't understand where the distinction is. I assume you are referring to transgender individuals? Can I assume you are basing this on the distinction between sex and gender, with gender being socially inculcated behavioral tendencies?



You should still have the freedom to not accept it as normal, of course - that's pretty much the cornerstone of liberal democracy, that people accept opinions and actions of others which they disagree with, as long as such actions don't violate their own rights or those of third parties.

I am glad to hear you say this. And I completely agree with you in theory. Unfortunately, people have been fired, children pulled into communist style struggle sessions, for expressing views similar to mine. And there's no doubt that similar atrocities are committed the other way as well.

Regardless, it is not so clean-cut as "you have your opinions and I have mine, and yet we'll live together and do just fine." I wish it were...



I had to look up Chesteron's Fence, but from what I read just now it has to do with reform in society - changing laws, dismantling institutions, etc. - and how one shouldn't undertake such reform until one understands what the original purpose for said law or institution was, and hence the consequences of changing/removing it. I'm not sure that's very relevant for choices affecting a single individual, except in the blatantly obvious sense that one should take the time and effort to fully and accurately weigh the pros and cons in advance. Which, yes, obviously one should, also in these cases. And sure, the cons now may still be bigger than they will be in the future because we don't know everything yet and puberty blockers still have downsides which maybe could be mitigated with further research. But if you let that factor stop you, there's going to be a whole lot of medical treatments that you'd have to call a halt to.

I could probably have phrased that better. Certainly, not taking puberty blockers means avoiding its side effects and those side effects will impact the patient whether or not they later want to revert to their birth gender. But since those side effects are part of the price to pay to change one's gender, patients who do continue down that path wouldn't regret them, or at least would accept them as part of the price to pay.

But blocking puberty will avoid some changes that would have to be surgically reversed later - if that's possible, obviously some puberty-induced changes can't be reversed at all, as we see in the debates about trans male-to-female athletes.


Chesterton's Fence is a thought experiment highlighting the importance of reflecting on what is already in place before making changes. And there are a couple of Chesterton's Fences to consider with this issue.

The first fence is puberty itself. And yes, in this example, it would refer to an individual's choice. And I think you laid out the concerns that an individual would want to consider well enough.

The second fence relates the view that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, which has been the common view up until recently. Society removing this "fence" for the view that it is normal opens up a floodgate of issues, with which we are only seeing the beginnings of; some examples of this are the division of mens and womens sports, which bathrooms are acceptable to use, and whether gender-affirming care is appropriate for underage people.

And the implications gain in intensity with time. Will insurance companies be forced to accept gender-affirming care as covered medical procedures? Are parents of a child with gender dysphoria who refuse to pursue gender-affirming care committing abuse and lose the right to their children?

All of this is sitting on a house of cards of fairly shaky science and fairly loud activists, as I see it.



That's a reason to be more careful and take more time to assess a teenager's desire for puberty blockers, yes, but I don't think it's a reason to automatically always refuse it. Of course there are many other things that teenagers aren't allowed to do until the day they turn 18 and then suddenly they can (and even one rather minor thing which for some absurd reason they have to be 21 for...), but given that puberty blockers are very much a time-dependent thing and that by age 18, in the overwhelming majority of cases, that ship has very much sailed, it makes no sense to put it in that same category.

Though as long as they're below 18 it does mean their parents have more of a say, and it's always going to be difficult to find the right balance about how much say they should have when their parents hold the opposite view. My view is rather different from yours below, but I'm not sure I could draw a clear line anywhere in particular.


Except that we aren't being careful, by and large. Society is being inundated with these ideas, which are being transmitted in government policies, medical practices, and educational institutions. Children are being taught (in some cases) by activist teachers to come out of the closet to them, and keep secrets from their parents. Some countries and some US States allow for underage kids to seek gender-affirming care without consent from their parents. And I can certainly understand and empathize with the sentiment that traditional parents would not be on board with these radical views. But it is not very difficult to see how all of this can be exploited by bad actors, both in the medical field as well as individuals seeking validation, not to mention the swath of confused and impressionable youths who get caught up in the cultural tornado and end up with consequences their minds were too underdeveloped to comprehend.



I expected something along those lines from Tyr and yourself, indeed.

Well, I'm sorry to be so predictable. I'll have to try harder next time

Omnipresent Lurker of WoTMB
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This message last edited by entyti on 14/08/2023 at 10:57:39 PM
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“Can you imagine our reading that James Madison or Thomas Jefferson tried to overthrow the gov't?" TyrReborn - 03/08/2023 09:02:48 PM 736 Views
I'm curious as to your point in posting this. damookster - 04/08/2023 03:17:48 AM 187 Views
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You're entitled to your optimistic view. *NM* TyrReborn - 06/08/2023 09:18:39 PM 75 Views
Not only is this statistically incorrect, it's historically incorrect. Ghavrel - 08/08/2023 11:35:42 PM 162 Views
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And Covid killed 1000000 Americans lol TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 09:49:02 PM 150 Views
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Died of =/= died from, and died during =/= killed TyrReborn - 17/08/2023 04:58:08 PM 147 Views
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These facts would cause you to be denounced as a "putinite fascist"... TyrReborn - 07/08/2023 05:45:05 PM 164 Views
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Tom, you are being far too reasonable. That doesn’t fly in 2023! *NM* damookster - 08/08/2023 12:22:49 AM 83 Views
He is, which is why, I think, he is wrong. *NM* TyrReborn - 08/08/2023 10:18:32 PM 87 Views
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Academics have been pro Marxism for over 100 years. It's nothing new. *NM* damookster - 08/08/2023 05:59:55 PM 85 Views
Maybe. But they've never been this spiteful or spoiled before. TyrReborn - 09/08/2023 01:29:30 PM 140 Views
No, they only recruited students to spy for the Soviets *NM* damookster - 14/08/2023 06:18:58 PM 76 Views
Yes. They do that now, too. Except it's the Chinese. *NM* TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 09:51:37 PM 75 Views
Do you have sources for that 'far more conservative and far more religious' claim? Legolas - 09/08/2023 07:35:50 PM 165 Views
In regards to more conservative, The Shrike - 09/08/2023 08:35:03 PM 176 Views
You see all this fury because a random dude on the internet calls a dude a dude TyrReborn - 17/08/2023 03:31:00 PM 146 Views
I side with Greg and Tom in this discussion. damookster - 08/08/2023 05:57:54 PM 159 Views
I don't suppose linking medical articles is going to help too much here, but... Ghavrel - 08/08/2023 11:28:05 PM 173 Views
Elizabeth, you know I have a non binary grandchild. damookster - 09/08/2023 01:22:32 AM 176 Views
Yeah, I know, I just think that the statistics are dangerous. Ghavrel - 09/08/2023 04:36:40 AM 159 Views
Respectfully, do you truly believe this? TyrReborn - 09/08/2023 05:42:31 PM 164 Views
I'll bite... Legolas - 09/08/2023 06:39:46 PM 151 Views
Thanks. <3 *NM* Ghavrel - 09/08/2023 08:27:13 PM 81 Views
Your thoughts AgentApple - 11/08/2023 04:14:37 PM 145 Views
Yes, that's true. Legolas - 11/08/2023 06:11:49 PM 156 Views
Re: Yes, that's true. AgentApple - 12/08/2023 04:25:28 PM 141 Views
The issue itself isn't necessarily - the way it's being used, however, is. Legolas - 14/08/2023 05:44:35 PM 143 Views
This is not bait, I am legitimately trying to understand. And if I understand correctly... TyrReborn - 11/08/2023 05:17:02 PM 151 Views
As I said, it wasn't intended as perfect analogy - it's about how much say should children have. Legolas - 11/08/2023 06:44:33 PM 160 Views
No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 05:43:37 PM 144 Views
There aren't a lot of people committing suicide over their teeth coming in. Ghavrel - 14/08/2023 08:21:29 PM 153 Views
Indeed. TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 09:50:53 PM 143 Views
You aren't mentally ill because of your views. You're just an asshole. Ghavrel - 14/08/2023 11:35:13 PM 156 Views
Re: No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation. Legolas - 15/08/2023 04:14:57 PM 164 Views
See, you're willing to discuss, instead of insult. Others on this board might take note. TyrReborn - 17/08/2023 05:18:39 PM 151 Views
Yeah, well, I have the luxury of an outsider's position... Legolas - 23/08/2023 11:47:24 PM 158 Views
Nobody is an outsider when reality is being attacked. TyrReborn - 25/08/2023 05:40:43 PM 143 Views
Fun facts Vodalus - 26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM 176 Views
There's some evidence that hormonal changes in utero are related to transgenderism. *NM* Ghavrel - 26/08/2023 11:26:21 PM 81 Views
Naturally occurring or iatrogenic? *NM* Vodalus - 26/08/2023 11:37:06 PM 91 Views
The studies are about naturally occuring variance, but that doesn't rule out other causes. *NM* Ghavrel - 28/08/2023 12:03:16 AM 79 Views
Not really "fun" so much as "a sad reality of biology", but yes. TyrReborn - 27/08/2023 09:42:14 PM 155 Views
Imagine if you had the same attitude towards trans people. Ghavrel - 28/08/2023 12:02:34 AM 135 Views
I may be no endocrinologist, but I at least understand simple biology. XY =/= XX =/= XXY TyrReborn - 28/08/2023 05:40:14 PM 135 Views
One can be an adult trans person and not support mutilation of children. *NM* damookster - 28/08/2023 07:49:32 PM 76 Views
Fair enough. I have some measure of respect for "Caitlyn" Jenner. You do you homie. *NM* TyrReborn - 29/08/2023 04:54:13 AM 82 Views
Simple is definitely true. Shame you never learned biology past what you were taught in high school. Ghavrel - 28/08/2023 11:21:38 PM 151 Views
Right, cause we're "butterflies" TyrReborn - 29/08/2023 04:57:20 AM 142 Views
I go to mass more than you. *NM* Ghavrel - 29/08/2023 09:58:09 AM 83 Views
Wow, really? And you still mutilated your body and told God that He was wrong about you? TyrReborn - 31/08/2023 05:44:32 PM 145 Views
I must say, The Shrike - 31/08/2023 07:04:47 PM 139 Views
Love is being true. Love is being honest. Love is God. TyrReborn - 31/08/2023 07:52:59 PM 133 Views
I appreciate that a great deal. Thank you. I think very highly of you, too. *NM* Ghavrel - 01/09/2023 04:44:58 AM 83 Views
Really went off the deep end there huh... Legolas - 31/08/2023 10:39:02 PM 132 Views
At least my beliefs can't be disproven by a $40 test at Wal-Mart. TyrReborn - 02/09/2023 03:40:43 PM 125 Views
It's ok. Many of us are quite sad for you too. The Shrike - 29/08/2023 11:10:32 AM 136 Views
I couldn't care less what unbelievers think. You'll meet the Truth, one day. TyrReborn - 31/08/2023 05:45:31 PM 131 Views
No such thing as damnation, but thanks. The Shrike - 31/08/2023 06:55:23 PM 133 Views
Then nothing more needs to be said. See who support your lies, Ghav? They literally deny Love. *NM* TyrReborn - 31/08/2023 07:54:23 PM 73 Views
He understands love a lot better than you do. *NM* Ghavrel - 01/09/2023 04:46:14 AM 68 Views
Hah! I knew you didn't worship God. Thanks for admitting it. *NM* TyrReborn - 02/09/2023 03:38:43 PM 78 Views
You're simply acting deranged at this point. Ghavrel - 03/09/2023 01:13:20 AM 155 Views
I hope you don't call yourselves Christian. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 04:11:06 AM 131 Views
Of course I'm Christian. I confess the faith of the apostles and of the councils. Ghavrel - 03/09/2023 11:41:56 AM 129 Views
Would you castrate Michelangelo's David? TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 09:03:07 PM 119 Views
Dude, you have really driven this off the deep end. damookster - 03/09/2023 04:03:16 PM 130 Views
It is not, and I am not. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 09:06:48 PM 145 Views
You absolutely are damookster - 03/09/2023 09:27:00 PM 142 Views
Caution is not condemnation. Warning is not judgment. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 11:05:17 PM 129 Views
Bro, I'm not worried about your immortal soul. damookster - 03/09/2023 11:35:41 PM 144 Views
I get that. But Ghav, supposedly, is. TyrReborn - 04/09/2023 12:09:55 AM 137 Views
You’ve expressed some pretty odious and ugly sentiments. Vodalus - 03/09/2023 10:07:51 PM 143 Views
Yeah, I'm definitely an outsider, and so are you. Legolas - 28/08/2023 07:49:48 PM 128 Views
Ok. TyrReborn - 29/08/2023 05:09:14 AM 131 Views
Schizophrenics suffer violent crime at 14x rate. Is America "schizophobic"? TyrReborn - 01/09/2023 05:01:18 PM 133 Views
I'll chew... entyti - 11/08/2023 10:35:45 PM 163 Views
What's your stance on parents who refuse medical treatment for their children with cancer? Ghavrel - 11/08/2023 11:12:21 PM 161 Views
I think... entyti - 11/08/2023 11:37:52 PM 153 Views
Really? damookster - 12/08/2023 12:02:12 AM 149 Views
Am I being unreasonable? entyti - 12/08/2023 05:16:06 AM 160 Views
Maybe not damookster - 12/08/2023 03:38:50 PM 171 Views
Most of us don't really like "the gays," either. And referring to people as "blacks" is offensive. *NM* Ghavrel - 13/08/2023 12:34:32 AM 77 Views
... is referring to people as "whites" offensive? I really, really hope you say yes. *NM* TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 05:46:07 PM 121 Views
Unfortunately for whites, gays, blacks, and transgenders... entyti - 14/08/2023 06:09:47 PM 130 Views
Their voice only counts *NM* damookster - 14/08/2023 06:20:32 PM 73 Views
Touché *NM* entyti - 14/08/2023 07:12:54 PM 74 Views
You can always choose not to be a dick online. *NM* Ghavrel - 14/08/2023 08:19:52 PM 70 Views
Now why would I want to do that? entyti - 14/08/2023 11:24:09 PM 127 Views
You're not a dick. You're honest. TyrReborn - 14/08/2023 09:54:34 PM 148 Views
Why not both? entyti - 15/08/2023 03:01:58 AM 137 Views
Sad, but true. TyrReborn - 17/08/2023 05:22:11 PM 134 Views
Re: I think... Ghavrel - 13/08/2023 12:35:05 AM 167 Views
Re: I'll chew... Legolas - 12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM 174 Views
Re: I'll chew... entyti - 14/08/2023 10:56:15 PM 135 Views
Re: I'll chew... Legolas - 15/08/2023 11:32:12 PM 148 Views
3 weeks later, did you have fun with this thread Tyr? *NM* Roland00 - 28/08/2023 08:16:13 PM 72 Views
We went a bit afield, sure, but hey, the board has a discussion going, doesn't it? *NM* TyrReborn - 29/08/2023 05:00:03 AM 65 Views
Well take care Roland00 - 31/08/2023 11:06:43 PM 155 Views
Same to you. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 04:20:19 AM 127 Views
Seeing things as beautiful or rotting Roland00 - 03/09/2023 05:21:50 PM 144 Views
I could not disagree more. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 09:13:31 PM 153 Views
See this is about you Roland00 - 03/09/2023 11:22:53 PM 154 Views
No, it's about God. TyrReborn - 03/09/2023 11:28:55 PM 135 Views
How much history do you know about Samaritans? Roland00 - 03/09/2023 11:39:54 PM 131 Views
Friend, you can cut the shit. TyrReborn - 04/09/2023 12:19:56 AM 131 Views
I was going to talk about Mount Gerizim you nitwit Roland00 - 04/09/2023 01:36:16 AM 138 Views
Oh, my apologies then. TyrReborn - 04/09/2023 07:46:57 PM 145 Views
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