View original postI'll start by making my stance on transgenders completely clear. I hold to the notion that it is a mental disorder, similar to anorexia, bulimia, or body integrity identity disorder. Broadly, they relate by an incongruity between one's body and their mental image. It may be a tired comparison, but I have not seen a solid argument against.
I don't think anorexia, bulimia and BIID have that much to do with each other to begin with... though indeed you often see the comparison to BIID as gender confirmation surgery involves removal of perfectly healthy body parts (though not all trans people take that step), just like people with BIID express a desire for, so if doctors agree to do that in the one case, why not in the other. I think the big difference there is simply in the nature of the desire - one is a rational enough desire (even if until quite recently it was an impossible one), the other very much isn't. Now that medical science does allow one to physically change one's gender, albeit still imperfectly and at a cost, I see no rational reason to block it.
View original postAs such, I would prefer to live in a culture that does not pretend it is normal, much less a culture that applies pressure to force society to accept it as normal. Of course, this means that all of this DIE DEI, SEL, or any other three letter WEF initiative, I find abhorrent.
You should still have the freedom to not accept it as normal, of course - that's pretty much the cornerstone of liberal democracy, that people accept opinions and actions of others which they disagree with, as long as such actions don't violate their own rights or those of third parties.
View original postFirst, excepting the minutely rare cases of genetic anomalies, puberty is a choice that has been refined in the crucible of evolution, backed by millions billions upon billions of choices made over the course of countless millennia. Puberty blockers are a novel development that is more or less untested for long-term side effects and has a laundry list of known issues, many irreversible, and includes, in many cases, inability to orgasm and sterility.
View original postChesterton's Fence would argue that doing nothing is going to be the better choice more often than not.
I had to look up Chesteron's Fence, but from what I read just now it has to do with reform in society - changing laws, dismantling institutions, etc. - and how one shouldn't undertake such reform until one understands what the original purpose for said law or institution was, and hence the consequences of changing/removing it. I'm not sure that's very relevant for choices affecting a single individual, except in the blatantly obvious sense that one should take the time and effort to fully and accurately weigh the pros and cons in advance. Which, yes, obviously one should, also in these cases. And sure, the cons now may still be bigger than they will be in the future because we don't know everything yet and puberty blockers still have downsides which maybe could be mitigated with further research. But if you let that factor stop you, there's going to be a whole lot of medical treatments that you'd have to call a halt to.
View original postI would ask you to clarify your point. Are you saying the upsides of waiting for puberty are uncertain since they only apply in the event of the teenager wanting to revert to their birth gender later on?
I could probably have phrased that better. Certainly, not taking puberty blockers means avoiding its side effects and those side effects will impact the patient whether or not they later want to revert to their birth gender. But since those side effects are part of the price to pay to change one's gender, patients who do continue down that path wouldn't regret them, or at least would accept them as part of the price to pay.
View original postIf so, I have to say that is fallacious. As an example, from my understanding, if one wants to pursue gender reassignment surgery, waiting for puberty will allow for more tissue available for a successful procedure. So there's that.
But blocking puberty will avoid some changes that would have to be surgically reversed later - if that's possible, obviously some puberty-induced changes can't be reversed at all, as we see in the debates about trans male-to-female athletes.
View original postBut let's look at your point about our hypothetical teenager changing shis mind. The fact is, teenagers by and large make more mistakes, make more poor choices, and change their minds more often than adults. There's a reason why insurance companies charge higher premiums for car insurance amongst the youth, and it isn't discrimination. It's because teens are a higher liability.
View original postTeenagers are ignorant know-it-alls. They love and hate passionately. They've been fed a thimbleful of knowledge, and think they've got the world all sussed out. "You're still young, that's your fault. There's so much you have to go through." etc etc
View original postI can't really see how option 1 (puberty blockers) is considered a legitimate option in any rational sense, frankly.
That's a reason to be more careful and take more time to assess a teenager's desire for puberty blockers, yes, but I don't think it's a reason to automatically always refuse it. Of course there are many other things that teenagers aren't allowed to do until the day they turn 18 and then suddenly they can (and even one rather minor thing which for some absurd reason they have to be 21 for...), but given that puberty blockers are very much a time-dependent thing and that by age 18, in the overwhelming majority of cases, that ship has very much sailed, it makes no sense to put it in that same category.
Though as long as they're below 18 it does mean their parents have more of a say, and it's always going to be difficult to find the right balance about how much say they should have when their parents hold the opposite view. My view is rather different from yours below, but I'm not sure I could draw a clear line anywhere in particular.
View original postI think dependents need to defer to their parents, yes. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of parenting. You live under my roof, you live by my rules.
I expected something along those lines from Tyr and yourself, indeed.
“Can you imagine our reading that James Madison or Thomas Jefferson tried to overthrow the gov't?"
03/08/2023 09:02:48 PM
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I'm curious as to your point in posting this.
04/08/2023 03:17:48 AM
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The point is that these uneducated dumbass race-baiters dare to lecture us
04/08/2023 05:33:36 PM
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. . .
05/08/2023 02:14:20 PM
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You're entitled to your optimistic view
05/08/2023 04:24:33 PM
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You only think your view is realistic because you haven't studied enough history.
06/08/2023 04:04:34 PM
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Not only is this statistically incorrect, it's historically incorrect.
08/08/2023 11:35:42 PM
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Sigh, I understand that it's hard to grasp these days, with our medical miracles,
14/08/2023 05:52:01 PM
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Disease is counted as part of wartime casualties.
14/08/2023 08:17:53 PM
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And Covid killed 1000000 Americans lol
14/08/2023 09:49:02 PM
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You didn't cherry pick anything. You just decided that the consensus of experts is incorrect.
14/08/2023 11:37:05 PM
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I don't think so
07/08/2023 01:54:05 PM
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These facts would cause you to be denounced as a "putinite fascist"...
07/08/2023 05:45:05 PM
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Well, of course it's going to pass
07/08/2023 06:55:12 PM
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Tom, you are being far too reasonable. That doesn’t fly in 2023! *NM*
08/08/2023 12:22:49 AM
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I just can't buy that the political and academic class will give up their grip so easily.
08/08/2023 05:49:58 PM
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Academics have been pro Marxism for over 100 years. It's nothing new. *NM*
08/08/2023 05:59:55 PM
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Maybe. But they've never been this spiteful or spoiled before.
09/08/2023 01:29:30 PM
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Do you have sources for that 'far more conservative and far more religious' claim?
09/08/2023 07:35:50 PM
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You see all this fury because a random dude on the internet calls a dude a dude
17/08/2023 03:31:00 PM
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I side with Greg and Tom in this discussion.
08/08/2023 05:57:54 PM
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I don't suppose linking medical articles is going to help too much here, but...
08/08/2023 11:28:05 PM
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Elizabeth, you know I have a non binary grandchild.
09/08/2023 01:22:32 AM
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Yeah, I know, I just think that the statistics are dangerous.
09/08/2023 04:36:40 AM
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Respectfully, do you truly believe this?
09/08/2023 05:42:31 PM
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I'll bite...
09/08/2023 06:39:46 PM
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Your thoughts
11/08/2023 04:14:37 PM
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Yes, that's true.
11/08/2023 06:11:49 PM
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Re: Yes, that's true.
12/08/2023 04:25:28 PM
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The issue itself isn't necessarily - the way it's being used, however, is.
14/08/2023 05:44:35 PM
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This is not bait, I am legitimately trying to understand. And if I understand correctly...
11/08/2023 05:17:02 PM
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As I said, it wasn't intended as perfect analogy - it's about how much say should children have.
11/08/2023 06:44:33 PM
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No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation.
14/08/2023 05:43:37 PM
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There aren't a lot of people committing suicide over their teeth coming in.
14/08/2023 08:21:29 PM
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Indeed.
14/08/2023 09:50:53 PM
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You aren't mentally ill because of your views. You're just an asshole.
14/08/2023 11:35:13 PM
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Re: No, seriously, only the last one was intended as parody. And I'd like an explanation.
15/08/2023 04:14:57 PM
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See, you're willing to discuss, instead of insult. Others on this board might take note.
17/08/2023 05:18:39 PM
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Yeah, well, I have the luxury of an outsider's position...
23/08/2023 11:47:24 PM
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Nobody is an outsider when reality is being attacked.
25/08/2023 05:40:43 PM
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Fun facts
26/08/2023 06:22:57 AM
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There's some evidence that hormonal changes in utero are related to transgenderism. *NM*
26/08/2023 11:26:21 PM
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Naturally occurring or iatrogenic? *NM*
26/08/2023 11:37:06 PM
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The studies are about naturally occuring variance, but that doesn't rule out other causes. *NM*
28/08/2023 12:03:16 AM
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Not really "fun" so much as "a sad reality of biology", but yes.
27/08/2023 09:42:14 PM
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Imagine if you had the same attitude towards trans people.
28/08/2023 12:02:34 AM
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I may be no endocrinologist, but I at least understand simple biology. XY =/= XX =/= XXY
28/08/2023 05:40:14 PM
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One can be an adult trans person and not support mutilation of children. *NM*
28/08/2023 07:49:32 PM
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Fair enough. I have some measure of respect for "Caitlyn" Jenner. You do you homie. *NM*
29/08/2023 04:54:13 AM
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Simple is definitely true. Shame you never learned biology past what you were taught in high school.
28/08/2023 11:21:38 PM
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Right, cause we're "butterflies"
29/08/2023 04:57:20 AM
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I go to mass more than you. *NM*
29/08/2023 09:58:09 AM
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Wow, really? And you still mutilated your body and told God that He was wrong about you?
31/08/2023 05:44:32 PM
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I must say,
31/08/2023 07:04:47 PM
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I appreciate that a great deal. Thank you. I think very highly of you, too. *NM*
01/09/2023 04:44:58 AM
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Really went off the deep end there huh...
31/08/2023 10:39:02 PM
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At least my beliefs can't be disproven by a $40 test at Wal-Mart.
02/09/2023 03:40:43 PM
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It's ok. Many of us are quite sad for you too.
29/08/2023 11:10:32 AM
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I couldn't care less what unbelievers think. You'll meet the Truth, one day.
31/08/2023 05:45:31 PM
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No such thing as damnation, but thanks.
31/08/2023 06:55:23 PM
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Then nothing more needs to be said. See who support your lies, Ghav? They literally deny Love. *NM*
31/08/2023 07:54:23 PM
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He understands love a lot better than you do. *NM*
01/09/2023 04:46:14 AM
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Hah! I knew you didn't worship God. Thanks for admitting it. *NM*
02/09/2023 03:38:43 PM
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You're simply acting deranged at this point.
03/09/2023 01:13:20 AM
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I hope you don't call yourselves Christian.
03/09/2023 04:11:06 AM
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Of course I'm Christian. I confess the faith of the apostles and of the councils.
03/09/2023 11:41:56 AM
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Dude, you have really driven this off the deep end.
03/09/2023 04:03:16 PM
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It is not, and I am not.
03/09/2023 09:06:48 PM
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You absolutely are
03/09/2023 09:27:00 PM
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Caution is not condemnation. Warning is not judgment.
03/09/2023 11:05:17 PM
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Yeah, I'm definitely an outsider, and so are you.
28/08/2023 07:49:48 PM
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Schizophrenics suffer violent crime at 14x rate. Is America "schizophobic"?
01/09/2023 05:01:18 PM
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I'll chew...
11/08/2023 10:35:45 PM
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What's your stance on parents who refuse medical treatment for their children with cancer?
11/08/2023 11:12:21 PM
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I think...
11/08/2023 11:37:52 PM
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Really?
12/08/2023 12:02:12 AM
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Am I being unreasonable?
12/08/2023 05:16:06 AM
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Maybe not
12/08/2023 03:38:50 PM
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Most of us don't really like "the gays," either. And referring to people as "blacks" is offensive. *NM*
13/08/2023 12:34:32 AM
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... is referring to people as "whites" offensive? I really, really hope you say yes. *NM*
14/08/2023 05:46:07 PM
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Unfortunately for whites, gays, blacks, and transgenders...
14/08/2023 06:09:47 PM
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Re: I'll chew...
12/08/2023 03:49:47 PM
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3 weeks later, did you have fun with this thread Tyr? *NM*
28/08/2023 08:16:13 PM
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We went a bit afield, sure, but hey, the board has a discussion going, doesn't it? *NM*
29/08/2023 05:00:03 AM
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Well take care
31/08/2023 11:06:43 PM
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Same to you.
03/09/2023 04:20:19 AM
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Seeing things as beautiful or rotting
03/09/2023 05:21:50 PM
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I could not disagree more.
03/09/2023 09:13:31 PM
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See this is about you
03/09/2023 11:22:53 PM
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No, it's about God.
03/09/2023 11:28:55 PM
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How much history do you know about Samaritans?
03/09/2023 11:39:54 PM
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Friend, you can cut the shit.
04/09/2023 12:19:56 AM
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