RAFO Messageboard: Yeah, you probably shouldn't watch it for any kind of storytelling pointers. :P by Legolas

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Yeah, you probably shouldn't watch it for any kind of storytelling pointers.

Legolas Send a noteboard - 13/09/2022 08:02:17 PM

View original postfor pointers on how to compress a story. Maybe if it's bad, I should watch it for pointers on how not to compress a story.

They're not really compressing any story necessarily - you can't seriously describe the bare-bones description we have of the Second Age as a 'story', rather it's a framework within which we have some stories including the Fall of Numenor and, even more sparsely written, the forging of the Rings and much later the war of the Last Alliances. But as several people have pointed out here, by pulling all of those threads together into a single human lifetime, in fact probably into a 5-10 year period max, they are missing a lot of opportunities to play in the sandbox of a three thousand year period about which we know so very little.

View original postI have a story I want to write (sci-fi) featuring a medieval civilization that lives alongside and dominates another civilization that (at the beginning of the story) doesn't even have language and is arguably on the cusp of sapience, which muddles the morality for the dominant civilization for whether their dominance is properly described as 'domestication' or 'slavery'. Fraught topic.

Cool project. Are you familiar with The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell? It's not too much like what you describe, but I was reminded of it because it does have humanity discovering a planet on which two civilizations co-exist, one more advanced than the other - and their interaction has some aspects which the humans only discover rather late and which are quite shocking.

View original postThe things that make me not want to write the story are:

View original postI've never really written even a good short story before.

I dare say many fantasy/sci-fi readers have cool ideas for books or series, but without necessarily having the desire or ability to first become a good enough writer that they could carry it off in a satisfactory way... from what I hear, the basic advice writers give to would-be writers is always the same: write as much as possible, to practice and find out what works for you and what doesn't.

View original postThe racial allegory of the two civilizations would be very tough to navigate. I would be writing about two different species that evolved separately (there are physical/technological reasons why the first to evolve can't really wipe out the second) and their shared ancestor would be as far back as something like the shared ancestor for humans and pandas, but it's likely any publisher would balk at the implications that could be assumed. I can't write the more advanced of the two civilizations as more enlightened (more than humans currently are, say) because that removes any of the story's conflict and realistically the more advanced civilization (if I make them that morally advanced) would probably have solved the mystery of why the 'gods' want everyone dead long before the evolution of the second civilization.

I'm not sure that would be such a big issue.

View original postThe POV of the barely-sapient characters would be tough to write. Maybe I need to read Clan of the Cave Bear? Or re-read White Fang? Parts of that book are told from the POV of dogs in a way that makes them 'almost human' and gives them about the level of intelligence/understanding I would want my characters to have, at least at first.

Yes, that would be very tough to get right indeed. Of course, you could just not have PoV characters of that civilization until they reached a higher level of sentience, but maybe that wouldn't work for other reasons.

View original postEh... the whole thing is pretty daunting but it's been kicking around in my brain for about 15 years and the driving technology (of the 'gods' ) that causes the rest of the story to happen is interesting to me and would make a good reveal. I mean, a typical sci-fi story would say 'these are weapons of war that wiped out their creators and outlived them' but that's cliché and I've got a better reason why they exist AND my reason explains why their creators built them to last on a geologic/evolutionary timescale.

View original postI have another storytelling gimmick in mind that I think would be very cool that I've never seen done before and to describe it would be to ruin it but suffice it to say the gimmick itself also increases the difficulty of the project.

That's very likely true, yes.

View original postMaybe I need to tell it like the 'Bolo' tank sci-fi stories. Instead of a continuous narrative, just a collection of short stories that gradually tells the epic tale of the rise of the Concordiat of Man and their war of extermination against the Melconians. That probably is the only way to tell my story, really. It definitely removes the possibility that I could employ the previously-described storytelling gimmick, though.

For anything spanning many lifetimes as you describe, it seems inevitable that you'd have numerous largely separate narratives within the one framework, rather than a single continuous story? Whether it's through many short stories or entire novels set at different times. Unless you have immortal characters, like in Tolkien or some other fantasy writers.

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So we finally get to Númenor in episode 3 damookster - 10/09/2022 01:46:13 AM 284 Views

You are kidding me

Roland00 - 10/09/2022 02:47:46 AM 130 Views

Supposedly Bezos’ son is a huge Tolkien fan damookster - 10/09/2022 02:50:16 AM 137 Views

I'm not particularly shocked about it, but it does make one wonder about the longevity of the show. Legolas - 10/09/2022 10:22:42 PM 137 Views

Wasn't the rumor 5 seasons? Roland00 - 11/09/2022 12:01:40 AM 134 Views

I will in all probability do exactly what I did with Amazon’s WOT show. damookster - 11/09/2022 02:38:11 AM 126 Views

Thank you for your service. Roland00 - 11/09/2022 03:50:54 AM 115 Views

Which is exactly why it irritates me so much. damookster - 11/09/2022 02:36:00 AM 143 Views

I don't think a lack of content for five seasons is the problem. Legolas - 11/09/2022 08:28:15 PM 136 Views

It’s getting worse Tom - 11/09/2022 12:32:12 AM 142 Views

This was inevitable, and not one of the changes I mind fionwe1987 - 11/09/2022 02:40:20 PM 158 Views

The rights to the Silmarillion, i.e. First Age, aren't available. Legolas - 11/09/2022 07:31:01 PM 139 Views

But that only makes it worse Cannoli - 13/09/2022 10:42:04 AM 142 Views

Yeah, I don't disagree. Legolas - 13/09/2022 08:15:44 PM 133 Views

If it's good, maybe I should watch it aerocontrols - 13/09/2022 03:41:01 PM 148 Views

Yeah, you probably shouldn't watch it for any kind of storytelling pointers.

Legolas - 13/09/2022 08:02:17 PM 135 Views

Ha! aerocontrols - 14/09/2022 04:29:34 AM 126 Views

Yeah - it's a big first hurdle, but you won't get anywhere until you start climbing it... *NM* Legolas - 14/09/2022 08:12:06 PM 69 Views

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<quote id="309924">
<quote id="309923">for pointers on how to compress a story. Maybe if it's bad, I should watch it for pointers on how not to compress a story.</quote>
They're not really compressing any story necessarily - you can't seriously describe the bare-bones description we have of the Second Age as a 'story', rather it's a framework within which we have some stories including the Fall of Numenor and, even more sparsely written, the forging of the Rings and much later the war of the Last Alliances. But as several people have pointed out here, by pulling all of those threads together into a single human lifetime, in fact probably into a 5-10 year period max, they are missing a lot of opportunities to play in the sandbox of a three thousand year period about which we know so very little. 
<quote id="309923">I have a story I want to write (sci-fi) featuring a medieval civilization that lives alongside and dominates another civilization that (at the beginning of the story) doesn't even have language and is arguably on the cusp of sapience, which muddles the morality for the dominant civilization for whether their dominance is properly described as 'domestication' or 'slavery'. Fraught topic.</quote>
Cool project. Are you familiar with The Sparrow, by Mary Doria Russell? It's not too much like what you describe, but I was reminded of it because it does have humanity discovering a planet on which two civilizations co-exist, one more advanced than the other - and their interaction has some aspects which the humans only discover rather late and which are quite shocking.

<quote id="309923">The things that make me not want to write the story are:</quote>

<quote id="309923">I've never really written even a good short story before.</quote>
I dare say many fantasy/sci-fi readers have cool ideas for books or series, but without necessarily having the desire or ability to first become a good enough writer that they could carry it off in a satisfactory way... from what I hear, the basic advice writers give to would-be writers is always the same: write as much as possible, to practice and find out what works for you and what doesn't. 
<quote id="309923">The racial allegory of the two civilizations would be very tough to navigate. I would be writing about two different species that evolved separately (there are physical/technological reasons why the first to evolve can't really wipe out the second) and their shared ancestor would be as far back as something like the shared ancestor for humans and pandas, but it's likely any publisher would balk at the implications that could be assumed. I can't write the more advanced of the two civilizations as more enlightened (more than humans currently are, say) because that removes any of the story's conflict and realistically the more advanced civilization (if I make them that morally advanced) would probably have solved the mystery of why the 'gods' want everyone dead long before the evolution of the second civilization.</quote>
I'm not sure that would be such a big issue. 
<quote id="309923">The POV of the barely-sapient characters would be tough to write. Maybe I need to read Clan of the Cave Bear? Or re-read White Fang? Parts of that book are told from the POV of dogs in a way that makes them 'almost human' and gives them about the level of intelligence/understanding I would want my characters to have, at least at first.</quote>
Yes, that would be very tough to get right indeed. Of course, you could just not have PoV characters of that civilization until they reached a higher level of sentience, but maybe that wouldn't work for other reasons. 
<quote id="309923">Eh... the whole thing is pretty daunting but it's been kicking around in my brain for about 15 years and the driving technology (of the 'gods' ) that causes the rest of the story to happen is interesting to me and would make a good reveal. I mean, a typical sci-fi story would say 'these are weapons of war that wiped out their creators and outlived them' but that's cliché and I've got a better reason why they exist AND my reason explains why their creators built them to last on a geologic/evolutionary timescale.</quote>
<quote id="309923">I have another storytelling gimmick in mind that I think would be very cool that I've never seen done before and to describe it would be to ruin it but suffice it to say the gimmick itself also increases the difficulty of the project.</quote>
That's very likely true, yes. :P 
<quote id="309923">Maybe I need to tell it like the 'Bolo' tank sci-fi stories. Instead of a continuous narrative, just a collection of short stories that gradually tells the epic tale of the rise of the Concordiat of Man and their war of extermination against the Melconians. That probably is the only way to tell my story, really. It definitely removes the possibility that I could employ the previously-described storytelling gimmick, though.</quote>
For anything spanning many lifetimes as you describe, it seems inevitable that you'd have numerous largely separate narratives within the one framework, rather than a single continuous story? Whether it's through many short stories or entire novels set at different times. Unless you have immortal characters, like in Tolkien or some other fantasy writers. 
</quote>

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