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It did happen though, sorry if I problematize your fantasy you are transversing Roland00 Send a noteboard - 07/05/2022 10:35:12 PM

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Of course, not better for all the women over the past fifty years who would've had to resort to illegal abortions - but if states had simply been allowed to set their own course on abortion, as they were starting to do in the years before Roe, probably the topic wouldn't have dominated American politics for all this time, the debate might not have gotten as extreme and probably the laws in many red states would have been less restrictive than they will be once this decision becomes final.
View original postSecond, even in some dead Red States, the divide is close to 50/50 on permitting abortion when conception is from rape or incest, according to NYT polls. The same polls indicate that while the great majority of Americans support some access to abortion, they also favor restrictions similar to what exist in Europe, which are far more restrictive that what currently exist in Blue States. I believe Germany restricts abortion access after 12 weeks which is less than the 15 in some Red State laws. So stating that Americans favor unlimited access to abortion, i.e. the status quo in Blue States, is not accurate.

There's always two aspects to consider when comparing abortion laws between countries: first of course the headline number, until how many weeks abortion is allowed in general, but secondly also, under which conditions, if any, is abortion still permitted beyond the general cutoff date? Looking at the Mississippi law that led to this decision, it set the limit for elective abortion at 15 weeks which is later than most European countries - but many of those European countries may have various conditions that do actually allow abortion at 15 weeks, or even later. For instance, since you mentioned Germany, they allow abortion after 12 weeks not only for physical health reasons, but also mental health reasons - if the woman is absolutely traumatized by the pregnancy and determined not to bring it to term, but for whatever reason missed the 12 weeks window, she'll still be able to get it.

But yes, for the most part we do have stricter regulations than what is allowed by Roe/Casey - and in most countries though not all, abortion is hardly even a political topic at all anymore.

View original postWhich leads to my final thought on this. Notice all the hyperbole is emanating from the edges? Notice who is conspicuously silent? Republicans not associated with the Religious Right. Why? They realize if Roe vs. Wade is repealed, it could completely fuck up what otherwise looked to be an historic debacle of a midterm election for the Democrats. It would mobilize the vote and possibly save Democratic control of Congress.

It doesn't look like it will be as much of a vote-getter as Democrats were hoping, in the short term - but in the longer term, if it means Republicans lose the automatic support of single-issue pro-life voters, it could certainly hurt them politically, yes. Unless they manage to string them along further by moving the goalposts and starting to look at, say, a constitutional amendment outlawing abortion nationwide - not that that would have a snowball's chance in hell of happening.
View original postWhich is exactly how the system is supposed to work. You vote out those who support beliefs contrary to your own. It took 50 years of working the system for the Religious Right to be on the verge of declaring victory over abortion. I'm betting doing the same from the Blue side will take a whole lot less.

Yeah... except the system is pretty broken. As you pointed out above, there would be a clear majority of Americans in favour of some kind of European-type abortion law, allowing it up to a certain point. But with the way the Senate works, said clear majority would still never reach the 60 votes needed to actually pass that law.


One can play the "lost object" game where one is doing the throwing the ball under the bed and saying "Oo" and later we here "Ah" , yes this game we play called "Fort/D" (Gone/There)

But it happened, and some may call it a trauma, but it happened.

And we play the game of fantasy instead of doing true analysis for true analysis is impossible, for no one knows what the future will bring. It is not about position in regards to time, nor velocity, nor acceleration (aka 1st and 2nd derivatives) it is about the unknowns and the jerks we did not anticipate and the future with this matter is so Not Transparent it leads to people being quite mad and passionate. It is chaos theory and it is not basic calculus.

Who knows what the future will bring, that is the point. We may know for other issues but we definitely do not know for this one, for it is so kinetic that we can not predict what will happen for it breads free radicals for any system producing too much entropy.

-----

Saying in many countries things have calmed down about this issue is like saying in many families they do love and respect each other. Many is not the same as All / the Universal.

Each country / state / human individual is unique and that is why people fight.

shrug

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Abortion in the South, and soon, probably all over the country - 25/04/2022 01:26:45 AM 1091 Views
that is the trouble here - 25/04/2022 05:02:46 PM 302 Views
"The party of "bodily autonomy"" - 26/04/2022 04:51:05 PM 259 Views
That is a perverts motte and bailey argument - 26/04/2022 06:27:51 PM 276 Views
The issue is abortion. - 26/04/2022 07:39:00 PM 245 Views
Tell me your feelings about Lochner - 26/04/2022 07:53:00 PM 252 Views
Simple, it was wrongly decided. - 26/04/2022 09:51:27 PM 222 Views
I think that is enough for the day - 26/04/2022 11:07:42 PM 230 Views
I honestly don't give a fig about the constitution here... - 26/04/2022 07:00:57 PM 286 Views
You can't have your cake and eat it too. - 26/04/2022 07:42:51 PM 272 Views
Uhhh - 26/04/2022 07:54:13 PM 240 Views
I mean, yeah. - 26/04/2022 09:58:19 PM 233 Views
You seem to be arguing with an alternate version of me... - 27/04/2022 04:46:46 AM 266 Views
Broad popular support? - 27/04/2022 04:54:49 PM 245 Views
Cannoli is not wrong. - 26/04/2022 05:09:49 PM 294 Views
Cannoli is a contemptuous moron - 26/04/2022 06:56:33 PM 252 Views
I am contemptuous of you (and I suspect your vocabulary skills) - 26/04/2022 09:30:55 PM 286 Views
Was the Catholic Church EVIL . - 26/04/2022 07:01:50 PM 273 Views
Roland, I am neither supporting nor denying any specific theology in my original comment. - 26/04/2022 08:28:31 PM 234 Views
And I am problematizing your claim - 26/04/2022 08:34:17 PM 241 Views
Theodicy - 26/04/2022 08:55:50 PM 289 Views
Re: Theodicy - 26/04/2022 09:45:35 PM 251 Views
and yet... - 26/04/2022 10:35:58 PM 279 Views
What is the Andrea Dworkin line again? - 26/04/2022 11:06:30 PM 254 Views
You're correct about that. We are most assuredly talking past one another. - 26/04/2022 11:39:01 PM 229 Views
Have not had a drink yet. - 26/04/2022 11:46:59 PM 235 Views
Leaked draft opinion - 03/05/2022 06:42:20 PM 294 Views
John Roberts confirms it is real - 03/05/2022 07:37:26 PM 264 Views
Results were leaked, not opinions. - 03/05/2022 08:02:10 PM 249 Views
If you want to parse the history you are welcome to do so. - 03/05/2022 08:32:06 PM 249 Views
You're either being willfully ignorant or disingenuous - 03/05/2022 09:26:49 PM 252 Views
There's a very simple alternate reason - 05/05/2022 06:36:26 AM 255 Views
“Wants to get the word out there ASAP” - 05/05/2022 02:02:00 PM 226 Views
Re: “Wants to get the word out there ASAP” - 06/05/2022 09:18:24 PM 251 Views
He said, not coming up with any retort of his own. - 09/05/2022 03:04:07 PM 261 Views
Re: He said, not coming up with any retort of his own. - 09/05/2022 05:01:43 PM 217 Views
Don't blame me for your failures. - 09/05/2022 05:21:48 PM 201 Views
Leaking also kind of locks in the 5 justices into a more radical decision - 05/05/2022 04:08:58 PM 228 Views
Precisely. - 06/05/2022 09:22:16 PM 204 Views
Obvious intent my ass - 05/05/2022 06:32:10 AM 227 Views
Treasonous Pieces of Junk - 05/05/2022 01:58:23 PM 254 Views
I cannot commit treason - 06/05/2022 09:20:20 PM 239 Views
Neither am I. - 09/05/2022 03:02:54 PM 250 Views
Projecting what? - 09/05/2022 05:02:59 PM 233 Views
Is this a parody account? - 09/05/2022 05:25:39 PM 230 Views
Nope. - 12/05/2022 10:23:24 PM 224 Views
Well, if it's not a parody... - 13/05/2022 07:46:45 PM 222 Views
Go look up what it means to “project” - 13/05/2022 05:04:19 PM 237 Views
Stop shifting the goalposts - 13/05/2022 07:45:21 PM 228 Views
There is no goalpost shifting - 17/05/2022 12:48:18 PM 246 Views
Parody Account: Hypocrite, or Just Stupid? - 17/05/2022 07:26:49 PM 242 Views
actually, Trump was impeached - 05/05/2022 02:05:16 PM 229 Views
By Democrats and a few Republicans - 06/05/2022 09:21:38 PM 246 Views
you wrote: - 06/05/2022 09:34:09 PM 200 Views
Ummm - 06/05/2022 09:42:57 PM 214 Views
Interesting is one word for it... - 05/05/2022 06:38:23 AM 223 Views
That's your thought.... - 06/05/2022 05:34:21 PM 261 Views
Hardly just mine - 06/05/2022 09:23:32 PM 200 Views
Interesting... - 06/05/2022 10:33:56 PM 252 Views
Roe has restrictions - 07/05/2022 03:16:32 AM 215 Views
So popular opinion is what decides recognition of life... - 06/05/2022 10:44:08 PM 241 Views
Nice try - 07/05/2022 03:19:35 AM 198 Views
No one said that, and you know it... - 07/05/2022 05:56:04 AM 221 Views
Well that's a lot of empty noise - 07/05/2022 02:46:48 PM 224 Views
Then stop listening to yourself… - 07/05/2022 06:56:45 PM 262 Views
Serious reading comprehension fail here... - 08/05/2022 05:01:28 PM 228 Views
That is the Catholic Church's position after 1869, but lets do Idaho and LA - 07/05/2022 10:08:39 PM 231 Views
And the Minoans practiced child sacrifice... - 09/05/2022 11:51:44 PM 216 Views
So we are in agreement if we circle around - 10/05/2022 02:34:19 AM 206 Views
Well, we agree it will get worse - 10/05/2022 04:05:33 PM 230 Views
Thanks for explaining why Roe was egregiously wrong. - 09/05/2022 03:56:52 PM 201 Views
Roe imposed nothing - 09/05/2022 05:05:36 PM 232 Views
Actually, it does impose - 09/05/2022 05:19:38 PM 312 Views
Re: Actually, it does impose - 13/05/2022 05:09:04 PM 223 Views
Roe imposed abortion on states that banned it. - 09/05/2022 05:26:56 PM 241 Views
States rights do not trump individual rights - 13/05/2022 05:12:13 PM 229 Views
States rights regulate individual rights - 13/05/2022 07:42:52 PM 247 Views
I am not allowed to get divorced in my state of Texas if my spouse is pregnant. - 15/05/2022 07:59:19 PM 249 Views
Cool - 16/05/2022 12:10:57 AM 243 Views
So our state energy grid - 16/05/2022 01:41:50 AM 235 Views
Wow, not sure I've seen you so angry before - 16/05/2022 08:12:58 AM 257 Views
Are you off your meds? - 16/05/2022 12:35:18 PM 216 Views
I live in the world the US set up Internment Camps in living memory, I known survivors. - 16/05/2022 06:00:07 PM 225 Views
You're literally arguing with yourself. - 16/05/2022 08:00:37 PM 225 Views
That is precisely what I am afraid of - 16/05/2022 08:07:41 PM 202 Views
That can literally be flipped right on to the other side. - 16/05/2022 08:19:02 PM 222 Views
Just a reminder freedom of movement is not in the US Constitution - 16/05/2022 08:25:42 PM 230 Views
Again, you put words into my mouth that I've never said. - 16/05/2022 08:32:38 PM 222 Views
Who the fuck cares? - 17/05/2022 12:54:48 PM 254 Views
Parody account strikes back! - 17/05/2022 07:14:24 PM 204 Views
a few final thoughts - 07/05/2022 07:18:38 PM 302 Views
In some ways, it probably would've been better if Roe v Wade had never happened. - 07/05/2022 08:20:17 PM 266 Views
I can always count on you for rational discussion. *NM* - 07/05/2022 09:19:57 PM 179 Views
He really is wonderful. - 09/05/2022 04:29:00 PM 252 Views
Let me join in. Yes. Legolas is good people. *NM* - 10/05/2022 02:52:37 PM 134 Views
It did happen though, sorry if I problematize your fantasy you are transversing - 07/05/2022 10:35:12 PM 223 Views
History and Histrionic or perhaps - 07/05/2022 10:25:23 PM 241 Views
The denominational distinctions within Christiandom aren't of concern to me... - 08/05/2022 05:09:12 PM 337 Views
There is an easy answer for you. - 09/05/2022 03:53:42 PM 249 Views

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