Active Users:618 Time:04/06/2026 02:36:36 AM
A few points gban007 Send a noteboard - 17/06/2020 09:29:15 PM

So this may come into the question of 'alt-left' vs 'left', I consider myself on the left side of things, and certainly supportive of lockdowns to try and contain the virus - not with intent to crash economy to support election outcomes - maybe some are but I think most are just concerned about the impact of COVID-19.
Given China's extreme lockdown, and their general strong support for the economy, I don't think they would have taken those steps unless they thought COVID 19 required those steps. And there are a number of studies coming out suggesting the reported death toll is far lower than the actual one.
I think there are mixed messages at times from various governments / health bodies, as to whether countries are trying to eliminate the virus through lockdown, or slow it enough so hospitals can cope, and this causes a bit of confusion therefore as to how much / how long a lockdown should be.
If going for elimination, then should be a strong lockdown until virus well on way out - but if just slowing it down, then shouldn't need to be as long, but mixed messages don't help with determining what we are trying to do here.
The collapses in medical systems we have seen in the likes of Wuhan, North Italy, New York city, Brazil and I think Iran show that we want to prevent that occuring if possible, as the mortality rate jumps when there isn't enough medical services.
After that though, it comes down whether it is feasible to eliminate, or otherwise just try and encourage people to take personal responsibility to try and reduce the spread as much as possible until vaccines or the like are available - I think Sweden has shown that it will take far too long to reach herd immunity, with too high a cost, to want to go down that route. Sweden has also shown that with a pandemic present, the economy can take a large hit whether lockdown present or not.
But I guess long story short here, I think there are valid reasons to want some form of lockdown, without it meaning that they are trying to trash economy to affect election chances.

Then of course we come to the protests - I think there have been a number of people on the left who have felt that while they support reason why they want to protest, it isn't the best time to do it in the midst of a pandemic, as comes to that personal responsibility thing. Cannoli spoke about the criticism that the anti lockdown protesters got, vs the current protests, but I think both groups have got a bit of flak around doing it in the circumstances, but at same time generally while people have criticised both, there wasn't action taken to stop them unless out of hand.

I do think rioting / looting shouldn't occur, but I think people doing so are just using the protests as a sort of cover / circumstance that allows them to do so, and not that the protesters themselves are generally wanting to do so.

Regarding people with concerns around law and order turning towards conservative candidates, I think generally that is true, but:
Is there much concern around law and order as such, as much of a concern around presence of police brutality - former definitely pushes towards conservative, latter may push it away if they feel that conservative candidates are more tolerant of police abuses.
Also, even if the former, I wonder if people see Trump generally as that sort of candidate, or if they may prefer Biden as president, but a Republican House and Senate, which may provide more stability.

Regarding actions with police, I think a lot of people feel that yes, shouldn't make trouble with police else there could be consequences, but that doesn't make the consequences right in all cases, and in fact could lead towards victim blaming. As long as people keep saying 'well if they didn't do such and such, bad stuff wouldn't have happened' then it feels that we are never getting to the underlying issues around police behaviour, and whether they are too ready to resort to violence / there is a culture among some of police brutality. Rayshard Brooks shouldn't have resisted arrest, but doing so shouldn't mean he is killed - a Taser isn't a lethal weapon, hence one of the reasons why it is there for police to use - as a non-lethal alternative, so there was nothing there to suggest Brooks should have been shot, let alone killed. If they didn't know what he was carrying, then I could understand it more, but they knew what he had.



Reply to message
I'm curious. - 08/06/2020 06:59:18 PM 1412 Views
I would expect so, yes. *NM* - 08/06/2020 08:00:59 PM 342 Views
That yes is for which question? Or is it for both? *NM* - 08/06/2020 08:23:06 PM 353 Views
The first one. Otherwise I'd have said no and yes. *NM* - 08/06/2020 09:19:48 PM 347 Views
Yes, I believe we will... - 08/06/2020 10:15:30 PM 718 Views
Why are you so invested in either closing down the country or the seriousness of the flu? - 09/06/2020 06:37:24 PM 754 Views
Because I care about my fellow human being, cockroach. Go infest somewhere else. I'm done with you. *NM* - 09/06/2020 08:35:42 PM 370 Views
Except you don't. You really, REALLY want this disease to be worse than it is. - 12/06/2020 11:06:50 AM 706 Views
Sure. Anyone who disagrees with you wants mass poverty or mass death. No other possibility exists... - 12/06/2020 02:44:08 PM 690 Views
Fionwe same as other alt-left crazies - 16/06/2020 05:24:12 PM 750 Views
I dunno what's "alt" about it. We're the mainstream. Which must scare you - 16/06/2020 06:06:44 PM 650 Views
Dissonance - 16/06/2020 08:02:08 PM 664 Views
Do you think it's possible to disagree, even vehemently - 16/06/2020 08:14:50 PM 717 Views
I'm sure it is, in some conditions. - 16/06/2020 09:43:50 PM 722 Views
I am not a middle aged white man. I'm an old white man. - 16/06/2020 06:15:52 PM 700 Views
Evidence is not on your side, damook *NM* - 16/06/2020 07:27:39 PM 355 Views
Much like... - 16/06/2020 07:34:14 PM 738 Views
Statistically Insignificant - 16/06/2020 08:07:03 PM 670 Views
Stats don't tell the whole story. - 16/06/2020 08:06:17 PM 650 Views
You're right but on race? - 16/06/2020 08:08:40 PM 708 Views
Yes, you're right. - 16/06/2020 08:17:04 PM 642 Views
You realize that's not a contradiction, right? - 16/06/2020 09:49:56 PM 703 Views
A few points - 17/06/2020 09:29:15 PM 699 Views
I wasn't going to say it but... - 16/06/2020 08:17:57 PM 691 Views
Again: you really are a loathsome little ball of slime. - 10/06/2020 02:11:52 AM 662 Views
It's not my world, it's theirs. - 12/06/2020 11:13:14 AM 687 Views
Burning down corporate stores and taking their stolen wealth is a moral good. *NM* - 15/06/2020 12:04:52 AM 359 Views
Stolen Wealth? - 15/06/2020 04:50:59 PM 688 Views
How does one determine what is Original Sin? - 15/06/2020 05:17:37 PM 683 Views
So then.... - 15/06/2020 09:59:31 PM 691 Views
I'm uncertain if this is what Ghavrel meant, but I'd assume you don't need proof that slavery... - 15/06/2020 07:59:07 PM 685 Views
So we're talking about reparations....? - 15/06/2020 09:42:37 PM 704 Views
Why must money solve "all" issues? - 15/06/2020 11:32:05 PM 671 Views
So then money won't... - 16/06/2020 06:09:24 PM 723 Views
- 16/06/2020 06:29:59 PM 669 Views
Those aren't codified examples - 16/06/2020 07:31:49 PM 689 Views
Well that's some special nonsense - 16/06/2020 09:55:42 PM 677 Views
We're having a discussion...please try and not denigrate me. - 17/06/2020 05:26:36 PM 688 Views
But I didn't clearly state I want to denigrate you. You're inferring intent. How's that ok? - 17/06/2020 06:06:28 PM 678 Views
Pain and Death they *actively* choose... - 17/06/2020 06:39:13 PM 699 Views
They make no such choice. Which is why they're out there protesting - 17/06/2020 07:00:25 PM 713 Views
Sigh - 16/06/2020 08:15:12 PM 661 Views
Nah I just straight up think capitalism is evil. Reparations should be paid, though. *NM* - 16/06/2020 09:22:46 AM 344 Views
Fair enough. *NM* - 16/06/2020 02:54:11 PM 347 Views
aaah... - 16/06/2020 06:10:16 PM 694 Views
Re: Stolen Wealth? - 16/06/2020 09:21:32 AM 648 Views
Rather it should be The State? *NM* - 16/06/2020 12:10:59 PM 335 Views
What is "the State" - 16/06/2020 02:57:34 PM 652 Views
my comment was directed to Ghavrel. - 16/06/2020 04:49:39 PM 666 Views
You shouldn't make assumptions... - 16/06/2020 06:10:02 PM 672 Views
Lemme tell you about this cool thing called syndicalism... *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:46:38 AM 347 Views
There's a lot I like about that... *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:07:47 PM 315 Views
Syndicalisme rĂ©volutionnaire, peut-ĂȘtre? *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:29:00 PM 318 Views
I'm actually still a reformist, believe it or not. *NM* - 18/06/2020 03:29:18 PM 329 Views
Bah *NM* - 18/06/2020 03:36:20 PM 305 Views
The only state with legitimacy is the Kingdom of Heaven. *NM* - 16/06/2020 08:57:26 PM 317 Views
Are we talking about the Mormon Sect? - 16/06/2020 09:06:14 PM 619 Views
My bad - 16/06/2020 10:20:14 PM 678 Views
In fairness, I usually talk policy goals as a social democrat. - 17/06/2020 12:34:45 AM 683 Views
They - 17/06/2020 06:29:35 PM 695 Views
- 17/06/2020 06:40:30 PM 686 Views
I go by she and her, but thank you. <3 *NM* - 18/06/2020 03:45:46 PM 350 Views
I try to be very sensitive to this. - 18/06/2020 03:55:01 PM 689 Views
Catholicism by itself is a Performance Arts Piece - 18/06/2020 01:17:45 AM 642 Views
A Catholic?! What?! I'm an Episcopalian. - 18/06/2020 03:45:24 PM 708 Views
No thanks. Not into non-democracies. *NM* - 17/06/2020 06:26:29 PM 327 Views
Ah a fellow Devil's Party Member. *NM* - 18/06/2020 01:13:37 AM 313 Views
That's the debate, isn't it. - 16/06/2020 06:16:10 PM 637 Views
Economists have been arguing this for over 400 years. - 16/06/2020 08:22:57 PM 667 Views
You could let the market determine that, I guess. - 16/06/2020 08:56:23 PM 680 Views
Because we do not live in Paradise. - 17/06/2020 05:36:58 PM 644 Views
Exactly. So the worker should own the means of production with other workers. - 17/06/2020 06:11:21 PM 664 Views
So my question then is.... - 17/06/2020 06:46:11 PM 714 Views
Sigh...I just can't not. - 18/06/2020 01:20:09 AM 635 Views
You know "talent" in the Bible is explictly referring to money, right? - 18/06/2020 03:43:11 PM 699 Views
Jesus also said it is easier for a camel to pass though a needle's eye... - 18/06/2020 03:49:43 PM 633 Views
This is true! - 18/06/2020 04:04:16 PM 693 Views
Thou shalt not steal. *NM* - 15/06/2020 11:10:34 PM 314 Views
Is a concern of mine - 08/06/2020 10:16:09 PM 669 Views
A natural experiment - 08/06/2020 10:42:34 PM 646 Views
Yes, we probably will. But demonstrators wearing masks are not normal life. - 09/06/2020 07:10:31 AM 684 Views
I'm not sure that's a valid comparison. - 09/06/2020 05:57:31 PM 654 Views
Agreed. These aren't comparable situations. - 09/06/2020 06:09:27 PM 676 Views
Down South that is called Communism Mookie. - 09/06/2020 06:32:06 PM 665 Views
Alabama is down south, right? - 09/06/2020 10:08:15 PM 652 Views
We have all the same rules here in Seattle - 10/06/2020 07:45:59 PM 688 Views
I figured you - 09/06/2020 10:09:36 PM 647 Views
About your original question... - 17/06/2020 09:25:38 PM 681 Views
that is encouraging - 17/06/2020 09:44:10 PM 684 Views
Re: that is encouraging - 17/06/2020 10:10:34 PM 623 Views
Seems indoors with strangers is more a predictor than outdoor protests. - 27/06/2020 02:38:07 AM 749 Views
Tips, maybe? - 27/06/2020 05:10:30 AM 682 Views
Perhaps - 27/06/2020 10:19:39 PM 624 Views
A 315 city study, BLM protests did not cause a spike in COVID cases. - 27/06/2020 10:19:05 PM 680 Views

Reply to Message