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I've read Joe's post on FB and the study it referred to. Legolas Send a noteboard - 04/06/2020 07:29:12 PM

It concludes, as you say, that black people don't seem to be more likely to be shot to death by police than white ones, all else being equal - though of course it's very difficult to have enough data to actually compare on a 'all else being equal' basis. Even if the data is there, all sides involved in the encounter may have their own incentives to lie or misrepresent what actually happened, especially if there is no video evidence. And when you aggregate data, you inevitably have to use categories, such as 'armed' and 'unarmed' in the stats you quote - but what counts as armed?

Anyway, the same study also concludes that black people are significantly more likely, again ceteris paribus to the extent that can be determined, to be subjected to non-lethal (or non-shooting, anyway) force by the police. Which is probably more relevant for the George Floyd case, as well as Eric Garner and some others, since those involved supposedly non-lethal force that ended up being lethal after all.


View original postBlacks are disproportionately the victims of, and perpetrators of, violent crimes. Fact.

Certainly.
View original postBlacks killed by police comprise 0.1% of black homicide victims. Fact.

On this one you seem to use some funny mathematics though. Using your numbers above, 235 is about 3 percent of 7407.
View original postA police officer is 18.5x more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer. Fact.

On this one I'm going to need sources, as it's a far more complicated calculation. A list I found showed that in 2018, 52 police officers were shot to death and another 13 killed by other forms of 'assault'.
View original postCONCLUSION: The police aren't racist. We as a society are seeing race where the real cause is likely the poverty in black communities. There is an element of residual racism there, but anyone who has read any of Thomas Sowell's phenomenal work on trends in the black community can see that it's not all about racism, but rather, also about victim mentality. After all, you don't really fail until you blame someone else for your failure. It's about the breakdown of families and traditional values, it's about government programs that made black males feel useless, it's about a whole host of problems, and generally throwing money at the problem and hoping it goes away hasn't helped.

I agree that the police, taken as a whole, is certainly nowhere near as racist as some are currently making them out to be - some of the posts I'm seeing about how there aren't any good cops and the police should be abolished are pretty far out there. Still, it may be a step too far to conclude that the police and their policies are not racist at all.

In my view this is really a conflation of two separate issues. One, excessive use of force by the police in general, both in the sense of using any force at all where none was required, and in the sense of using more dangerous/lethal force than necessary. Which has a lot to do with the equipment they're given and some of the work they are being asked to do - basically the 'if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' problem. And then when it goes wrong, their superiors have to walk a fine line between punishing wrongdoing without demotivating their officers and weakening their hand in situations that do actually require lethal force.

And two, obviously, structural racism where being black is a disadvantage in all sorts of aspects of life. I think cops in general are no more racially prejudiced, maybe even less so, than the communities they serve - the difference is just that with them, racial prejudice may come to play in life or death situations. There is much more than just an 'element of residual racism' in American (and other western) societies. And just because a racial prejudice is based on real statistics showing higher crime rates, higher single parenthood rates, etc., among black Americans, doesn't stop it from being a racial prejudice: an assumption about people you don't know based on the single data point of the colour of their skin.

It's a very difficult matter, how to redress the crimes and injustices committed against black people in American history and move into a new reality where opportunities are truly equal, because even when there is full legal equality and explicit racism is frowned upon in society, there are still the knock-on effects of the past. Especially considering the economic evolutions of the past decades, the American dream being essentially dead, with strongly reduced social mobility, no real wage growth for the vast majority of Americans and very limited opportunities for poor people of any colour to become rich. There may be something to what you say about victim mentality, but certainly the suggestion that if black people just improved their mentality, all problems would get resolved without any need for other changes, is pretty absurd and offensive.

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Soooo, it turns out that George Floyd had drugs in his system - 04/06/2020 02:02:47 PM 1198 Views
Why let facts cloud your emotions when you want to steal shit? - 04/06/2020 03:45:24 PM 415 Views
Facts that don't fit a narrative are ignored. - 04/06/2020 05:12:44 PM 380 Views
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Bingo *NM* - 05/06/2020 05:31:26 PM 200 Views
Mookie how do you feel now after the May 30th tire incident, that the cops admitted they did today? - 08/06/2020 11:59:42 PM 343 Views
Whatever the rationale, defunding the police is a bad idea. Even Bernie agreed with that. *NM* - 12/06/2020 03:27:29 PM 186 Views
Are you disagreeing with the branding, or the actual ask? - 12/06/2020 04:32:36 PM 306 Views
Second - 12/06/2020 05:42:05 PM 314 Views
It depends on who's asking. - 12/06/2020 06:55:34 PM 308 Views
LA schools police will return grenade launchers but keep rifles, armored vehicles - 12/06/2020 07:11:36 PM 397 Views
Wow. What an absolutely insane sentence. *NM* - 12/06/2020 07:13:42 PM 195 Views
A six year old news article? Is it even still relevant? *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:39:44 PM 184 Views
It is extremely relevant - 12/06/2020 09:09:33 PM 303 Views
That's bizarre. You position changes based on who you're talking to? - 12/06/2020 07:12:47 PM 310 Views
yes because some have an agenda I can't accept. - 12/06/2020 08:36:15 PM 366 Views
So you are Anti-Anti- ... isn't that exhausting *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:39:35 PM 194 Views
No, I would be Uncle-Uncle *NM* - 12/06/2020 08:40:56 PM 200 Views
Sounds like one of those damned forsaken Time Loops. - 12/06/2020 09:12:27 PM 321 Views
Did you see this? It's brilliant - 08/06/2020 02:07:30 AM 431 Views
I did indeed. - 09/06/2020 08:50:04 AM 354 Views
I've read Joe's post on FB and the study it referred to. - 04/06/2020 07:29:12 PM 361 Views
Some of what you write is reasonable. - 04/06/2020 07:52:14 PM 390 Views
The drug war has caused a lot of collateral damage, yeah. - 04/06/2020 09:37:43 PM 325 Views
“Structural racism” is a bullshit term - 05/06/2020 04:00:09 AM 409 Views
Maybe the term isn't right - 05/06/2020 05:41:59 AM 365 Views
More bullshit! - 05/06/2020 11:14:49 PM 332 Views
and another point - 06/06/2020 03:37:45 AM 337 Views
A modest proposal *NM* - 05/06/2020 07:14:50 AM 197 Views
0.1% should be unarmed blacks *NM* - 05/06/2020 11:16:12 PM 212 Views
Your definition of racial prejudice is not the same as racism - 12/06/2020 02:49:04 PM 318 Views
And the hair splitting award goes to... - 12/06/2020 04:26:29 PM 302 Views
Also, COVID-19 - 04/06/2020 08:05:47 PM 345 Views
I hate to agree with Roland, but... - 05/06/2020 02:01:56 AM 365 Views
Exactly. There is no reason to have a knee on his neck for 8 minutes. *NM* - 05/06/2020 04:15:58 PM 181 Views
Who said otherwise? That actually shows the VIRTUES of the system. - 05/06/2020 06:46:10 PM 366 Views
Wait so that is your complaint? SERIOUSLY? - 05/06/2020 11:10:04 PM 319 Views
Re: Wait so that is your complaint? SERIOUSLY? - 17/06/2020 09:23:38 PM 463 Views
Daniel Shaver had a BAC 3 times the legal limit. - 05/06/2020 03:38:27 AM 330 Views
Never gonna happen - 05/06/2020 07:13:57 PM 346 Views
Re: Soooo, it turns out that George Floyd had drugs in his system - 05/06/2020 04:45:41 PM 349 Views
??? - 05/06/2020 05:23:34 PM 319 Views
My question is not why George Floyd said he can't breathe... - 05/06/2020 05:44:47 PM 365 Views
Oh, he asserted it - 05/06/2020 06:03:06 PM 345 Views
Ever watch Cops or Live PD or any police reality show? - 05/06/2020 05:35:38 PM 330 Views
Posting something a literal Karen made. - 06/06/2020 01:50:54 AM 435 Views
A Karen is a moron - 09/06/2020 06:42:11 PM 371 Views
It doesn't matter a whole lot - 06/06/2020 08:36:10 AM 359 Views

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