RAFO Messageboard: There are valid points here, but they're undermined by his pooh-poohing of the real dangers. by Legolas

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There are valid points here, but they're undermined by his pooh-poohing of the real dangers. Legolas Send a noteboard - 18/03/2020 10:49:06 PM

View original postGovernments love crises because when the people are fearful they are more willing to give up freedoms for promises that the government will take care of them.

Never waste a good crisis, as the saying goes. Definitely true, and no doubt there will be at least some permanent consequences of the steps being taken now by the US government and other governments around the world. Some foreseeable, some not so much.

View original postDeclaring a pandemic emergency on Friday, President Trump now claims the power to quarantine individuals suspected of being infected by the virus and, as Politico writes, “stop and seize any plane, train or automobile to stymie the spread of contagious disease.” He can even call out the military to cordon off a US city or state.

It's my understanding that, in the specific case of a pandemic, these quarantine powers have largely existed from the start of the US and were also approved by the Founding Fathers? On that score I'm not sure he's claiming all that much power that previous presidents didn't have?

View original postThe chief fearmonger of the Trump Administration is without a doubt Anthony Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health. Fauci is all over the media, serving up outright falsehoods to stir up even more panic. He testified to Congress that the death rate for the coronavirus is ten times that of the seasonal flu, a claim without any scientific basis.

This is uncalled for and undermining the credibility of the entire article. Everybody can easily check the numbers on the death rate for the coronavirus - and see that it depends on various factors and clearly we don't fully know yet, but ten times that of the seasonal flu isn't a crazy high estimate or 'claim without any scientific basis' even if the final number ends up somewhat lower. And the following paragraphs are even worse.

View original postThe madness over the coronavirus is not limited to politicians and the medical community. The head of the neoconservative Atlantic Council wrote an editorial this week urging NATO to pass an Article 5 declaration of war against the COVID-19 virus! Are they going to send in tanks and drones to wipe out these microscopic enemies?

That's... interesting. I'm assuming there would be some advantages to invoking article 5 that explain the logic here, but I wouldn't know off-hand what they are.

View original postThat is not to say the disease is harmless. Without question people will die from coronavirus. Those in vulnerable categories should take precautions to limit their risk of exposure. But we have seen this movie before. Government over-hypes a threat as an excuse to grab more of our freedoms. When the “threat” is over, however, they never give us our freedoms back.

Fair enough to be concerned about the government grabbing more freedoms during a crisis like this, but not fair enough to call it over-hyped or accuse serious scientists of making stuff up with precisely zero proof.

View original postJust a reminder, the author is not a reporter or a politician who wants the job of, or is indebted to, those handling the public response, but an actual M.D. whose medical career consisted of treating patients, instead of research and running a bureaucracy.

This is from the former Congressman/presidential candidate Ron Paul, right? Who is actually a retired politician as well as an MD?

View original postIn a fluid situation like this, the big stick of high level decisions is going to have greater collateral damages and is more likely to be a one-size-fits-all action that's going to hard on those who DON'T fit the size. Even above and beyond the problem of the 'government vs freedom' ratchet effect, is the point that they aren't likely to be as effective. Or at bet they will save some of the incompetent from themselves, at the expense of some of those who will be impeded from protecting themselves or are willing to take risks with their own health they deem necessary. What part of "Free Country" and "Adult Responsibility" do people have such a hard time grasping?

The thing with a pandemic is that the 'incompetent' endanger not only themselves, but also everybody around them. By 'saving them from themselves', you also save others. Which would presumably be one of the reasons why, as mentioned above, governments have historically been given a LOT of power in these situations, also in the time of the Founding Fathers when the government still had far less power in many other domains. Of course then there's the question which level of government should have such power - you could argue the states should have more of it and the federal government less. But the author is bashing mayors, governors and the federal government alike, so that doesn't seem to be his main focus here.

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"Be wary of overreaching government responses to coronavirus" Cannoli - 17/03/2020 11:34:31 PM 631 Views

Yup nothing to worry. It's a hoax. fionwe1987 - 18/03/2020 01:06:55 AM 323 Views

All these years, and you REALLY have never learned any reading comprehension skills, have you? *NM* Cannoli - 18/03/2020 06:52:21 AM 162 Views

That's rich, given your inability to comprehend reality. *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/03/2020 01:47:00 PM 152 Views

Fionwe... ummm... Nargs - 18/03/2020 09:47:52 PM 318 Views

BTW, here is what Cannoli was referring to: *NM* Nargs - 18/03/2020 10:15:27 PM 167 Views

Wow. You think I'm dumb because I disagree with your biased views. Whatever will I do? *NM* fionwe1987 - 18/03/2020 11:50:57 PM 162 Views

No, you're dumb because your clear bias prevents you from understanding the point being made. Hieshyn - 19/03/2020 03:42:23 PM 467 Views

I get the point just fine. I reject the notion that you need to downplay the virus to make it . *NM* fionwe1987 - 19/03/2020 05:18:56 PM 147 Views

You suffer from TDS which indicates low IQ *NM* Nargs - 20/03/2020 03:24:45 AM 166 Views

You just accused me of wanting people dead so Trump would lose. You're the filth of humanity. fionwe1987 - 20/03/2020 04:02:01 AM 297 Views

I usually vote LIbertarian when I can aerocontrols - 18/03/2020 01:35:56 PM 323 Views

Doesn't Ron Paul now have all this time and freedom to write a sequel to his Racist newsletter? *NM* Roland00 - 18/03/2020 06:06:43 PM 154 Views

doesn't mean he's wrong about this *NM* damookster - 18/03/2020 08:56:26 PM 159 Views

But why attack the argument when you can.... Nargs - 18/03/2020 09:55:11 PM 326 Views

What makes Ron special? *NM* Roland00 - 19/03/2020 12:17:39 AM 169 Views

Who said he was special? *NM* Nargs - 20/03/2020 03:25:26 AM 153 Views

Regardless of past behavior, he's wrong here fionwe1987 - 18/03/2020 11:56:23 PM 321 Views

There is what? 1.1 million doctors in the United States? Roland00 - 19/03/2020 12:16:52 AM 343 Views

There are valid points here, but they're undermined by his pooh-poohing of the real dangers. Legolas - 18/03/2020 10:49:06 PM 351 Views

The Founding Fathers were all about limiting the power of the central government. damookster - 18/03/2020 11:41:35 PM 308 Views

I doubt they were ever that one-note in their thinking fionwe1987 - 18/03/2020 11:59:18 PM 298 Views

Maybe it is my American schooling making a mess of things Hieshyn - 19/03/2020 03:51:01 PM 407 Views

I love Irony. Roland00 - 22/03/2020 05:53:58 PM 311 Views

I would like to get Ron Paul's take on the seriousness of the virus now. fionwe1987 - 22/03/2020 06:08:12 PM 321 Views

It makes me so angry Roland00 - 22/03/2020 06:25:08 PM 298 Views

On the plus side fionwe1987 - 23/03/2020 07:23:04 PM 296 Views

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<quote id="305236">
<quote id="305214">Governments love crises because when the people are fearful they are more willing to give up freedoms for promises that the government will take care of them.</quote>
Never waste a good crisis, as the saying goes. Definitely true, and no doubt there will be at least some permanent consequences of the steps being taken now by the US government and other governments around the world. Some foreseeable, some not so much.

<quote id="305214">Declaring a pandemic emergency on Friday, President Trump now claims the power to quarantine individuals suspected of being infected by the virus and, as Politico writes, “stop and seize any plane, train or automobile to stymie the spread of contagious disease.” He can even call out the military to cordon off a US city or state.</quote>
It's my understanding that, in the specific case of a pandemic, these quarantine powers have largely existed from the start of the US and were also approved by the Founding Fathers? On that score I'm not sure he's claiming all that much power that previous presidents didn't have? 
<quote id="305214">The chief fearmonger of the Trump Administration is without a doubt Anthony Fauci, head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health. Fauci is all over the media, serving up outright falsehoods to stir up even more panic. He testified to Congress that the death rate for the coronavirus is ten times that of the seasonal flu, a claim without any scientific basis.</quote>
This is uncalled for and undermining the credibility of the entire article. Everybody can easily check the numbers on the death rate for the coronavirus - and see that it depends on various factors and clearly we don't fully know yet, but ten times that of the seasonal flu isn't a crazy high estimate or 'claim without any scientific basis' even if the final number ends up somewhat lower. And the following paragraphs are even worse.

<quote id="305214">The madness over the coronavirus is not limited to politicians and the medical community. The head of the neoconservative Atlantic Council wrote an editorial this week urging NATO to pass an Article 5 declaration of war against the COVID-19 virus! Are they going to send in tanks and drones to wipe out these microscopic enemies?</quote>
That's... interesting. I'm assuming there would be some advantages to invoking article 5 that explain the logic here, but I wouldn't know off-hand what they are.
<quote id="305214">That is not to say the disease is harmless. Without question people will die from coronavirus. Those in vulnerable categories should take precautions to limit their risk of exposure. But we have seen this movie before. Government over-hypes a threat as an excuse to grab more of our freedoms. When the “threat” is over, however, they never give us our freedoms back.</quote>
Fair enough to be concerned about the government grabbing more freedoms during a crisis like this, but not fair enough to call it over-hyped or accuse serious scientists of making stuff up with precisely zero proof. 
<quote id="305214"><i>Just a reminder, the author is not a reporter or a politician who wants the job of, or is indebted to, those handling the public response, but an actual M.D. whose medical career consisted of treating patients, instead of research and running a bureaucracy. </i></quote>
This is from the former Congressman/presidential candidate Ron Paul, right? Who is actually a retired politician as well as an MD?

<quote id="305214"><i>In a fluid situation like this, the big stick of high level decisions is going to have greater collateral damages and is more likely to be a one-size-fits-all action that's going to hard on those who DON'T fit the size.  Even above and beyond the problem of the 'government vs freedom' ratchet effect, is the point that they aren't likely to be as effective. Or at bet they will save some of the incompetent from themselves, at the expense of some of those who will be impeded from protecting themselves or are willing to take risks with their own health they deem necessary. What part of "Free Country" and "Adult Responsibility" do people have such a hard time grasping?</i></quote>
The thing with a pandemic is that the 'incompetent' endanger not only themselves, but also everybody around them. By 'saving them from themselves', you also save others. Which would presumably be one of the reasons why, as mentioned above, governments have historically been given a LOT of power in these situations, also in the time of the Founding Fathers when the government still had far less power in many other domains. Of course then there's the question which level of government should have such power - you could argue the states should have more of it and the federal government less. But the author is bashing mayors, governors and the federal government alike, so that doesn't seem to be his main focus here. 
</quote>

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