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The Christian concept of soul, maybe. But RJ was clearly not sourcing his ideas from there... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 03/03/2019 06:45:13 PM

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I guess for the sake of argument, what happens in Wheel of Time is that rather than fully die, people are stuck in a post-physical state of existence that keeps making them born again and again. The soul has to do with your will, your essential nature and no one and nothing can change that but you.

I'll bow to your knowledge of how Christianity views the soul, but this makes no sense from the Hindu or Jain philosophical viewpoint, which are more germane here since RJ lifted a lot of concepts almost whole cloth from those religions.

The soul can certainly gain enlightenment, and that is entirely a matter of your own effort, but to take that to mean nothing else can affect the soul is hardly a universal human belief. Some Hindu schools do believe the soul is untouchable and unaffected, but hardly all. And the non-dualist schools, which RJ seems to have drawn most heavily from, certainly don't think the soul is unaffected by other things.

The chief way the soul leaves itself open to influence, one which RJ came back to repeatedly, is in failing to realize that the world is an illusion, and that the soul is one with the rest of creation. This non-dualist view is clearly the source of Aiel, Da'shain and Amayar beliefs of life being a Dream/Illusion, and also the Oneness that allows channelers to access saidin or saidar.

As for rebirth, in Hindu belief, the cycle of rebirth is the way for the soul to gain salvation. To break free of the cycle, the soul must see its oneness with Brahman (which is what the True Source seems to be modeled on). Piercing through the illusion of reality to realize this is the way to salvation, and that's why everyone in WoT prays for rebirth and salvation.

Brandon Sanderson completely lost sight of these philosophical points, of course, so the simple answer to Rand and Ishamael's frustration with the cycle of rebirth was completely missed. But RJ left in plenty of clues that this is what he was going for.

And as a consequence, if the soul cannot be affected at all, there's no point to rebirth. The goal is to achieve self-knowledge through experience, which is impossible to do if the soul is hermetically sealed and unable to interact with the illusion of reality it is placed in.


That would be why people keep being reborn, and the Dark One can't do anything about it. If people are bad enough or closely aligned with the Shadow, he can mess with them for a bit, but eventually, they die to that state of existence as well, and go back into the pool.

Well he can do something about it. If he enters the world fully and makes it in his image, he can clearly do a lot with those souls. If they're so untouchable that he can't, his entry into the world wouldn't be nearly as scary, would it?


As far as non-human constructs go, those that have souls (I actually believe it's stated somewhere that Myrdraal do not) did not have human beings using the Power to put souls into them, rather, they are somehow derived from natural human life. Trollocs, for example, were bred from humans, which is where they get their souls from.

Ummm no... Trollocs were a product of human and animal genetics being mixed, sure, but it clearly wasn't a matter of crossing humans and animals to breed. RJ wasn't by any means a denier of evolution, and he wouldn't be so stupid as to violate speciation. In any case, we know Aginor was trying this with the One Power alone, and got severely condemned, then joined the Dark One to use the True Power in his experiments. It was not a simple matter of breeding.

But the bigger point about constructs is that they do bear souls at all. If the soul is untouchable by the One Power, this wouldn't be possible. Here's an RJ answer confirming it:


Interview: Dec 9th, 2002
Wotmania and Dragonmount Q&A
Question

How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?
Robert Jordan

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.


If you can borrow temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth using the One Power to create Nym (and Chora trees), that means the One Power can interact with and affect souls. There's no two ways about this.



And humans cannot duplicate the Creator's work 100%, which is why in certain conditions, they fail, dying when passing through a gateway being the most notable, so clearly they are not actually all the way in control or successful in the process, rather they're just hijacking the natural mechanism through a physical process. It's like a test-tube baby - no one is actually making new people or creating life, they are simulating the conditions under which life begins, so nature takes its course. Making Nym or Trollocs or whatever is simply a more complicated elaboration of that.

No one said they can duplicate the work of Creation 100% (though who knows where they'd have taken their technology). But that isn't the question being discussed. The question is, can the One Power affect souls. Clearly, it can.


Likewise, Tel'Aran'Rhiod is just a different state of existence.

No. It is the ur-state of existence. As Verin explained to Egwene, it is the third constant, along with the Creator and the Dark One. To me, TAR is like the base substrate of creation. If your soul is able to project yourself there, you have Creator like powers (limited by your strength in the Dream). "Reality" is, basically, the Creators dream, melded to TAR (or dreamshard, as Brandon Sanderson called it. Stupid as that name is, I'll stick with it for convenience). Rand, in Shayol Ghul, was creating fresh Dreamshards in his contest with the Dark One, both of them re-writing the rules of reality as distinct from what the Creator has set.


Their bodies may have stopped functioning, but the Heroes still live, on this side of that ultimate door between life and death.

Nope. RJ has said explicitly that it is their souls that go to TAR, awaiting rebirth.


What one sees in Tel'Aran'Rhiod is a real thing,

It explicitly is not. Trying to change what the books to fit your worldview is a little bizarre, Cannoli.


but it's still not the person's soul and a Hero of the Horn is just not all the way dead yet. Death is nudity, the soul is the naked person, the spirit one sees in the World of Dreams is clothing and the body that dies in the world is a suit of armor.

Nope. Those are their souls.


I don't know how things work in WoT,

We do. You're just ignoring it to make it fit your view of what souls must be. Which is deeply puzzling, since according to your beliefs, rebirth shouldn't be happening at all, yet that fundamental aspect of WoT you seem to have no problem acknowledging.


but the soul HAS to be something more, something not truly of this world, or else nothing really does matter.

How do you figure that? The soul enters the world. It is affected by it. From how it deals with its experience, and depending on whether it achieves the self-knowledge to know it is in a dream, it is released from the cycle of rebirth, achieves salvation. Seems massively simple to me. Not sure why "nothing really does matter" if the soul can be affected by reality. I'd think the reverse is true. If nothing in reality can affect the soul, then what's the point of life, or, in the case of WoT, rebirth? Your argument would fit Ishamael's view, maybe, but not how most in WoT see things, or how RJ saw things for the world he created.


The point of being good even when you fail in life or in the world, is that you are being true to that part that is you, regardless of the clothing, and that compromising morals or values to prolong existence is like living for your clothes or armor.

I do not see why the soul being something the One Power can affect is in any way affecting these things.


The One Power or the Dark One can hijack your armor or move your clothes against the will of your limbs, but they can't change your will. Only you can do that.

RJ's answer above contradicts this. If a soul can be corrupted so it can only be reborn as a Trolloc, then, clearly, the Dark One, at the least, can change your will.


Coming back around to the Gray Man question, I think they vacate their armor for the Dark One to use. That's why the wolves call them Not-Dead. They are dead, but don't act like it. I don't think RJ ever portrays a Grey Man acting with a will or choices (because they don't have those), just reacting to circumstances. But because of their cooperation with the process, they don't look like traditional undead.

I see it the same way. I just don't see why any of this means the One Power cannot affect the soul. Setting aside the factual evidence against that, I also don't see any obvious philosophical issues with the very essence of Creation affecting souls, especially in a world where salvation lies in the soul realizing it is part of the whole, and thus part of saidin and saidar.
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I wonder if Grey Men were a "first step" for making gholam. *NM* - 27/02/2019 06:09:21 AM 478 Views
If there is any connection between them & Shadowspawn, it is as the inspiration for Shaidar Haran - 27/02/2019 01:57:50 PM 425 Views
On the OP and souls. - 01/03/2019 07:05:06 AM 414 Views
IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 01/03/2019 01:31:20 PM 401 Views
Re: IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 02/03/2019 09:47:00 AM 420 Views
Re: IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 02/03/2019 12:26:20 PM 410 Views
One quick issue.... - 02/03/2019 08:07:03 PM 409 Views
Re: One quick issue.... - 02/03/2019 09:26:27 PM 403 Views
Ok, that's a fair distinction. - 03/03/2019 03:45:13 AM 385 Views
The OP can interact with souls... - 02/03/2019 03:57:36 PM 405 Views
No it can't, or RJ is misusing the term "soul." - 02/03/2019 09:13:34 PM 537 Views
The Christian concept of soul, maybe. But RJ was clearly not sourcing his ideas from there... - 03/03/2019 06:45:13 PM 428 Views
Oh, and... - 03/03/2019 08:30:06 PM 410 Views
Doesn't true death in TAR preclude rebirth? - 03/03/2019 06:58:29 PM 396 Views
That's Hopper's opinion, regarding wolves. - 03/03/2019 07:16:27 PM 392 Views

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