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Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. Legolas Send a noteboard - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM

View original postYou're saying now, "Well, I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word 'socialist' in their name as a historic relic." That's like trying to talk about communism through the lens of the current policies of the Chinese Communist Party. "But, but, they have the word 'communist' in their name so when we talk about communists we should keep them in mind, not the guys who murdered everyone!" Seriously, listen to yourself. You used to have some logical backing for your points.

I'm talking about the platforms of parties that have the word socialist in their name, full stop. Who are regularly and unambiguously referred to by both supporters and opponents as socialists, and there's no 'historic relic' about that. You were so kind as to provide that list and to illustrate my point about what 'socialist' means in a modern context, and that those people who actually do still believe in public ownership of the means of production are to be found in parties which call themselves communist, like the PCF.

Though I would add that there are simply very few people left who hold that belief at all; on the one hand most of the key communist regimes have either lost power or embraced private enterprise to at least a significant extent, and on the other hand many communist parties in Western democracies have gradually weakened their position to a point where they at least tacitly gave up that principle and became essentially ex-communist parties (the PCF may or may not be among those, haven't studied them closely). They may still exist and in some cases (Wallonia is an interesting case in point right now) even flourish as a further-left alternative to the mainstream socialist party, but their party programs no longer advocates public ownership of the means of production, excepting a few specific sectors.

Frankly, I don't need 'logical backing' when discussing simple facts. Maybe it's not 'logical' for the word to have the meaning it has, but it does so anyway. I will admit that in the US the meaning of the word seems to be more ambiguous, which to some extent I was aware of but I may have underestimated it, going by aero's reply. Still, since I originally brought this up in the context of Trump's speech at the UN and international reception of his words, that point stands.


View original postWe have a wide range of specific and clear terms that we can use. We can call a party "communist" if it is striving not just for socialism, but ultimately for a pure communist society. We can call it "socialist" when it wants to have the control of the means of production in the hands of the state. If that party puts a premium on representative democracy, we can call it "democratic socialist". If it favors a policy of taxing industry and individuals at high rates to support social programs, we call it "social democratic". If it supports only a safety net, we tend to call it "market democratic". This is clear and easily understood by anyone who has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics.

You're obviously free to use those definitions yourself, but you're delusional if you think that everyone who 'has a sufficiently moderate grasp of politics' would use those terms in the precise way you use them here. Especially considering you just compiled that analysis of various European party names and programs yourself.

Oh, and also: you forgot to mention that the German SPD has called itself 'social democratic' rather than socialist since 1890, so that includes a long period of time when it did in fact embrace Marxist ideals.

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I don't care if Trump deputizes the Klan or outlaws Spanish; Rocket Man is worth it. - 21/09/2017 01:00:46 AM 1214 Views
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Pretty sure - 24/09/2017 11:07:00 PM 543 Views
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such as? - 21/09/2017 08:16:48 PM 620 Views
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Sure, I'll bite... - 21/09/2017 10:07:00 PM 540 Views
He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 537 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 543 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 553 Views
I'm making the argument... - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 626 Views
Socialists are taking it back - 26/09/2017 08:03:39 PM 567 Views
...democratic... fascism? *NM* - 26/09/2017 08:22:36 PM 305 Views
Sure - 26/09/2017 08:32:17 PM 548 Views
It's an interesting idea. - 27/09/2017 02:19:19 AM 535 Views
Sounds like Singapore to me. *NM* - 27/09/2017 02:33:06 AM 286 Views
See, I wouldn't call Singapore democratic. - 27/09/2017 05:03:14 AM 483 Views
Did you see their hilarious presidential 'election' recently? *NM* - 27/09/2017 07:55:15 AM 334 Views
*shrug* - 27/09/2017 01:05:47 PM 510 Views
I think that's a weakness of your spectrum argument, though. - 27/09/2017 11:06:16 PM 450 Views
the non military is the further stretch - 27/09/2017 02:16:03 PM 539 Views
lol - 27/09/2017 02:37:00 PM 521 Views
Hmm. - 27/09/2017 06:52:46 PM 538 Views
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Uh. You say no, but what follows makes it sound like yes? - 27/09/2017 11:42:11 PM 588 Views
You're again making an idiotic argument - 27/09/2017 07:25:36 PM 557 Views
Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 593 Views
No, socialist is socialist. What is so hard about that? - 28/09/2017 05:05:27 AM 511 Views
It was a brilliant speech all around, and you don't understand Trump based on those comments. - 21/09/2017 08:32:29 PM 546 Views
He's doing jack shit. He tells people everything they want to hear, then blames Congress... - 21/09/2017 08:57:36 PM 596 Views
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It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 06:37:01 PM 516 Views
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That's a good point. - 26/09/2017 06:44:13 PM 486 Views
I get it.... - 26/09/2017 09:00:35 PM 470 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 08:09:53 PM 583 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 26/09/2017 02:08:17 PM 569 Views
Trump lost credibility to me on the 'anti-PC' / 'pro free speech' issue - 26/09/2017 07:54:06 PM 480 Views
Let's hold the phone here for a moment.... - 26/09/2017 09:07:07 PM 457 Views
Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 498 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 463 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 497 Views
keep it in one thread n00b - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 535 Views
Don't confuse PC with social norms - 27/09/2017 02:21:49 PM 455 Views
So... - 27/09/2017 02:39:01 PM 503 Views
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He was in town today, stumping for Luther Strange - 23/09/2017 03:58:49 AM 564 Views
You're an Alabamian, huh? Me too! - 26/09/2017 06:05:24 PM 453 Views
I'm a Kansan, I live in 'Bama - 26/09/2017 06:19:13 PM 486 Views

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