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I'm making the argument... Legolas Send a noteboard - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM

that the word 'communism' is universally understood as referring to the state owning the means of production, whereas the original term 'socialism' is used in multiple different meanings nowadays, but most commonly the way in which all the mainstream-left parties in Europe with the word 'socialist' in their name, as well as those young Americans, intend it. 'Poorly educated' is just sour grapes from you.

Of course I can't say that using socialism in the original sense of the word as you insist on doing is wrong, but if the goal is to make yourself clearly understood, there's a better alternative. If the goal is just to score political points for domestic American consumption by trying to associate Bernie Sanders or single-payer healthcare with the mess in Venezuela, well, carry on then. That's basically what I meant with the comment about leaving the right wing radio stuff at home. Not that I was or am expecting you to agree with that point of criticism.

View original postYou're essentially making the argument that because lots of young people are poorly educated and think socialism means "any time the government does something to help people", that this means everyone needs to base their use of the word on that misunderstanding rather than using the word properly. That's such an idiotic position to take that I had to double check that you were the one making it. Maybe we should just start saying people lacking interest are "disinterested" "irregardless" of whether or not that's right now?

As for the point of principle there - I would encourage people to use words correctly, sure, but when so many people have started using a word in a different sense from the original one that the newer meaning is the dominant one, I'm not going to stubbornly keep insisting. The meaning of words can shift over time, whether we like it or not. 'Irregardless' is pretty idiotic to you and to me, but there may come a time when it's commonly accepted English.
View original postYou're also wrong on the Soviet Union. The Soviets built socialism and were working on communism under the guidance of the Communist Party. We were right to call them communists but wrong if we called their system of government "communist". The people expressed a goal of full communism, hence they were communists. They were also socialists in the sense that they believed in full state control of the means of production prior to the implementation of total communism. However, not every socialist party seeks to go on to implement communism. That doesn't change the definition of socialism.

I would go further and say that most socialist parties don't even seek to implement your definition of 'socialism', i.e. full state control of the means of production (though they may advocate state control of some specific sectors like public transport and healthcare). Which just so happens to be the primary characteristic that the world's communist regimes have in common (if I understand your reasoning, you're saying in fact the world hasn't actually seen any communist regimes, yet I dare say you understand to which regimes I refer). Hence the shift in meaning in most people's understanding of the two words.

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I don't care if Trump deputizes the Klan or outlaws Spanish; Rocket Man is worth it. - 21/09/2017 01:00:46 AM 1158 Views
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Oh, and just to add... - 21/09/2017 07:55:35 PM 520 Views
such as? - 21/09/2017 08:16:48 PM 593 Views
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Sure, I'll bite... - 21/09/2017 10:07:00 PM 484 Views
He's right on socialism - 25/09/2017 12:42:26 AM 474 Views
Sure, by the original meaning of the word. - 25/09/2017 05:22:50 PM 484 Views
People misuse words all the time (cf. ironic). That's their problem. - 25/09/2017 07:25:55 PM 496 Views
I'm making the argument... - 26/09/2017 07:12:56 PM 568 Views
Socialists are taking it back - 26/09/2017 08:03:39 PM 508 Views
...democratic... fascism? *NM* - 26/09/2017 08:22:36 PM 275 Views
Sure - 26/09/2017 08:32:17 PM 488 Views
It's an interesting idea. - 27/09/2017 02:19:19 AM 481 Views
Sounds like Singapore to me. *NM* - 27/09/2017 02:33:06 AM 263 Views
See, I wouldn't call Singapore democratic. - 27/09/2017 05:03:14 AM 423 Views
Did you see their hilarious presidential 'election' recently? *NM* - 27/09/2017 07:55:15 AM 310 Views
*shrug* - 27/09/2017 01:05:47 PM 449 Views
I think that's a weakness of your spectrum argument, though. - 27/09/2017 11:06:16 PM 401 Views
the non military is the further stretch - 27/09/2017 02:16:03 PM 478 Views
lol - 27/09/2017 02:37:00 PM 468 Views
Hmm. - 27/09/2017 06:52:46 PM 485 Views
Almost missed this reply, hiding down here. - 27/09/2017 09:40:41 PM 431 Views
Uh. You say no, but what follows makes it sound like yes? - 27/09/2017 11:42:11 PM 527 Views
You're again making an idiotic argument - 27/09/2017 07:25:36 PM 488 Views
Which you then did your best to prove? Thank you for that, by the way. - 27/09/2017 09:13:28 PM 526 Views
No, socialist is socialist. What is so hard about that? - 28/09/2017 05:05:27 AM 450 Views
It was a brilliant speech all around, and you don't understand Trump based on those comments. - 21/09/2017 08:32:29 PM 497 Views
He's doing jack shit. He tells people everything they want to hear, then blames Congress... - 21/09/2017 08:57:36 PM 538 Views
That's absolutely not what he's doing - 22/09/2017 09:54:34 PM 486 Views
If you say so. - 25/09/2017 05:31:00 PM 524 Views
I can see where you're coming from... - 21/09/2017 08:50:03 PM 516 Views
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It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 06:37:01 PM 462 Views
By the by - 25/09/2017 07:23:39 PM 439 Views
That's a good point. - 26/09/2017 06:44:13 PM 424 Views
I get it.... - 26/09/2017 09:00:35 PM 411 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 25/09/2017 08:09:53 PM 520 Views
Re: It is? Like what? - 26/09/2017 02:08:17 PM 511 Views
Trump lost credibility to me on the 'anti-PC' / 'pro free speech' issue - 26/09/2017 07:54:06 PM 418 Views
Let's hold the phone here for a moment.... - 26/09/2017 09:07:07 PM 406 Views
Too late to hold the phone! The horses are out of the barn. - 26/09/2017 09:20:06 PM 439 Views
Yeah. And not just Trump. - 26/09/2017 11:59:05 PM 406 Views
Re: Yeah. And not just Trump. - 27/09/2017 02:27:40 AM 435 Views
keep it in one thread n00b - 27/09/2017 02:52:55 AM 477 Views
Don't confuse PC with social norms - 27/09/2017 02:21:49 PM 402 Views
So... - 27/09/2017 02:39:01 PM 449 Views
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He was in town today, stumping for Luther Strange - 23/09/2017 03:58:49 AM 512 Views
You're an Alabamian, huh? Me too! - 26/09/2017 06:05:24 PM 398 Views
I'm a Kansan, I live in 'Bama - 26/09/2017 06:19:13 PM 429 Views

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