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In this particular case, the feminists would appear to have a legitimate point Cannoli Send a noteboard - 23/08/2017 02:54:46 AM

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So I guess Joss Whedon, who, according to his ex-wife, has been a philanderer who has a propensity to take sexual advantage of young women who work for him, is no longer welcome in feminist circles. (Should have gotten elected President, Joss!)

I'm not and never will be a gatekeeper of who is or is not a feminist, and certainly would not claim to be one myself. But I'll just leave this here, because whatever Joss himself is, it seems that perhaps he once knew how to write feminist characters


I had to go look up something that actually deals with Whedon himself, since the linked article doesn't.

The things he allegedly says (in writing) about his behavior and the attitudes that informed said behavior suggest a disconnect between his alleged feminist values, and how he operates.

The terms in which he describes his actions and motivations suggest someone whose view of female sexuality is not at all in line with his preaching. It's one thing to note that someone's actions are not in accord with his professed beliefs, as in the case of Gibson, or if all we had on Whedon was some infidelity. It's his self-described attitudes that are incongruous with the ideals he professes.

“When I was running ‘Buffy,’ I was surrounded by beautiful, needy, aggressive young women. It felt like I had a disease, like something from a Greek myth. Suddenly I am a powerful producer and the world is laid out at my feet and I can’t touch it.” But he did touch it. He said he understood, “I would have to lie — or conceal some part of the truth — for the rest of my life,” but he did it anyway, hoping that first affair, “would be ENOUGH, that THEN we could move on and outlast it.”
- written by the ex, for whatever it's worth.

He describes these women in terms of objects or forces, rather then people with whom he interacts. He is blaming other people for his own choices, and confessing to an objectifying attitude, particularly in the second quote, where he talks about using a person to get his uncontrollable urges out his system.

People have told me that the obnoxiously smarmy beta male characters on his shows are authorial insertion characters, and my only reason for doubting this, was not wanting to believe this of a creator whose work I enjoyed. Because Xander and Doyle were fairly contemptible and even Wash was a bit. At the very least, he was a considerable ways down the scale of heroism compared to, like, every one of his shipmates. I didn't even particularly like the way he treated his wife, although the show was canceled before he could turn into Xander. Both Xander & Doyle destroyed their marriages with their own pettiness, selfishness and insecurities, and Wash was on that path. I didn't want to think that way about the guy who wrote such funny or engaging shows, but there's a lot of congruity there, especially given things he's said about the characters in commentary tracks and so forth.

“In many ways I was the HEIGHT of normal, in this culture. We’re taught to be providers and companions and at the same time, to conquer and acquire — specifically sexually — and I was pulling off both!”

It's not me, it's society! The hell it is, Joss. But this reminds me of something he said on the commentary track for the critically-acclaimed dream episode of BtVS that ended the fourth season, where Joyce comes on to Xander, and he says something like I'm supposed to be a conquistador, but I'm more of a 'comfortador'," which Whedon explained as saying that men are conditioned or taught to be sexually aggressive conquerors, but deep down inside, we really want to be comforted. A) Speak for yourself, Joss. I had, like, the least possible enlightened upbringing, with REALLY old school traditional values, and I was NEVER encouraged to think of women like that, nor has it ever seemed like a natural impulse. It's a perverse and dehumanizing attitude, but Joss wrote a scene where the fulfillment or consummation of that attitude is portrayed as sexy and desirable. And the woman so treated on the show is the mother of the main character, the most maternal figure on the show and its personification of motherhood. Hell, since it is mostly about juveniles, she's the show's nearly sole example of actual adult womanhood. The only other adult women, besides Joyce, who in those first four seasons was often a clueless foil, whose sexuality was problematic at best (divorced, dated an abusive robot, hooked up under the influence of magical candy and died right after her only good date) to appear in more than one episode were Jenny Calendar (horribly murdered to torment her boyfriend), and the Maggie Walsh (the evil anti-mother). You know how often I thought any of those things about those characters, before reading that quote? Never. It cascades out from the notions Whedon himself expresses.

That's, I think, why some feminists don't want anything to do with him.

As a counter example, Mel Gibson was really big with the traditional Catholic types around and after the making & release of "The Passion of the Christ" for his apparent alignment with their beliefs and activities, as well as his willingness to put his money where his mouth was, and having the guts to make tPotC, and all the crap he got for it afterwards, as well as the sheer nonsense in the nature of the criticism about it. It kind of made them protective and defensive. And the subsequent exposure of his personal life, and similar failings to Whedon's would illustrate that he is probably not a good Catholic.

HOWEVER, Gibson never said anything to justify or excuse his behavior. Everything I ever heard or read him saying on the subject was a flat-out admission of guilt and wrongdoing. That's not hypocrisy, nor is it contradictory to Catholic belief and teaching, with its assumption of sin and fallen nature. His sinfulness was known, or at least assumed, by his fans, and the specifics might have been saddening or appalling, but only indicated a failure to act on what he knew to be right. He certainly did not have a history of diatribes against other adulterers or womanizers, nor did he make movies and TV shows specifically for expressing his views.

Hell, his most famous movie series, Lethal Weapon, had all sorts of liberal messages, such as the Murtagh kids wearing pro-choice or environmentalist tee-shirts, gun control posters in a police station, and his character, in the final movie of the series, barked back at his best friend, a backhanded rebuke for Murtagh's "family values". His academy award winning film was about an adulterous main character, and a villain who had the active support of the pope, historically, speaking. Gibson separated his beliefs from his work, he didn't preach at people, until he made tPotC, which was a film specifically about his religion & views, and was a personal, independently-made work. It was not a sermon masquerading as an action movie or anything like that. If you didn't like it or were uninterested in the topic, you didn't have to watch, but critics went out of their way to attack it.

Now, take Whedon, who, once he got to make things on his own, all but announced BtVS was a feminist work. He explicitly said so, claimed it was motivated by his feminist impulses, and so on. People who wanted to look at a cute girl and see a show about killing vampires had to tolerate girlpower nonsense, and what was even more grating to some of us, was how badly crafted his feminist narratives were. Whedon also came out and made political things. He identified himself as a feminist far more than Mel Gibson did so as a Catholic.

And it turns out that he has had a long history of, according to his own accounts, objectifying and exploiting the actual women in his life.

There is error, there is failure to live up to ideals, and there is lip service to an ideology, when you act in a completely different way than you not only claim to, but promote as the right or superior way to be. No one just happens to believe in feminism, and that's okay if it's not your thing. Feminism is a jealous goddess. It is aggressive and moralistic and is constantly put out there in absolute terms. Feminists don't talk about other people's actions in terms of their own views or perspectives, they flat out denounce them as sinful or sacrilegious. Yes, yes, I know, #notallfeminists, but absolutely anyone as publicly a feminist as Whedon. Feminist messages and works of entertainment, by their nature, are a commentary about things that the artist perceives to be wrong, or how things should be. You don't get points for writing nonsense like "men name things, but women are open to learning what things' names are" and then basically boast of your inability to fend off these rapacious temptresses, and that you were trying to do right by your wife by cheating on her and then getting the attractive woman out of your life. That's naming her, instead of bothering to find out what her name is

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
His wife's take, and the source of the quotes
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The purges will continue until morale improves - 22/08/2017 04:10:36 PM 1061 Views
I love how they cite Vasquez from Aliens as a strong female character. - 22/08/2017 04:46:53 PM 496 Views
Not where I pictured that going... - 22/08/2017 07:19:46 PM 342 Views
Uh, yeah, I don't see the link. Just because he cheated on his wife doesn't make him not feminist. - 22/08/2017 06:44:28 PM 386 Views
You are not the gatekeeper, either - 22/08/2017 07:25:31 PM 373 Views
I strongly protest against the notion that there IS a gatekeeper. - 22/08/2017 07:39:41 PM 360 Views
I am the gatekeeper. Both of you are out. - 22/08/2017 07:52:22 PM 417 Views
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None shall pass. - 22/08/2017 07:57:43 PM 363 Views
yeah, yeah, yeah... - 22/08/2017 08:06:40 PM 357 Views
We're out of my field - 22/08/2017 07:53:01 PM 382 Views
Of course the real problem with the strong female action figure is the lack of real world models - 22/08/2017 07:30:55 PM 366 Views
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An interesting thing about sci-fi is that it can plausibly eliminate sexual disparity in strength. - 22/08/2017 08:19:52 PM 375 Views
I take it by 'Africans', you mean 'black people'? - 22/08/2017 09:19:01 PM 381 Views
I meant Africans. The deficiency here is in my knowledge of sports records. - 23/08/2017 12:40:23 AM 335 Views
In longer distance races, yes. Not so much in sprinting. - 23/08/2017 07:03:14 AM 349 Views
When you are talking aliens then gender really isn't an issue - 22/08/2017 09:42:07 PM 342 Views
Of the two female Avengers only one has super powers. - 22/08/2017 09:46:49 PM 367 Views
*shrug* - 22/08/2017 09:56:20 PM 377 Views
And it bothers me that he can get nocked around like that and live - 23/08/2017 12:29:26 AM 416 Views
No, not yours *NM* - 23/08/2017 12:34:13 AM 234 Views
So that makes me wonder....What is the definition of a Feminist? - 22/08/2017 11:20:49 PM 377 Views
A person who supports feminism. - 22/08/2017 11:55:56 PM 440 Views
Motte and Bailey - 24/08/2017 10:22:03 PM 435 Views
? - 24/08/2017 10:34:34 PM 461 Views
The argument is - 24/08/2017 11:03:19 PM 362 Views
I think people have different ideas of how to reach equality, some of which are stupid - 24/08/2017 11:28:31 PM 394 Views
Well, ok - 25/08/2017 12:19:24 AM 361 Views
Men! - 25/08/2017 09:28:21 AM 424 Views
I really like this analogy, but I think it's off base here. - 24/08/2017 10:36:31 PM 368 Views
Re: I really like this analogy, but I think it's off base here. - 24/08/2017 11:01:15 PM 423 Views
Re: I really like this analogy, but I think it's off base here. - 24/08/2017 11:34:24 PM 383 Views
Re: I really like this analogy, but I think it's off base here. - 25/08/2017 12:28:58 AM 394 Views
Re: I really like this analogy, but I think it's off base here. - 25/08/2017 03:33:53 AM 359 Views
Sometimes 'real' is the right word, though - 25/08/2017 03:01:16 PM 380 Views
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all the social justice people hide from one reality - 25/08/2017 03:40:51 PM 356 Views
That's the equity/equality distinction. - 25/08/2017 04:01:10 PM 342 Views
See, but it's the same thing.... - 25/08/2017 05:22:50 PM 452 Views
Are you ok giving a rich black person advantages over a poor white one? - 25/08/2017 05:41:58 PM 384 Views
It's not just a black/white issue - 25/08/2017 05:45:17 PM 430 Views
Really? - 25/08/2017 06:16:14 PM 377 Views
Affirmative action is illegal for public universities in California - 25/08/2017 06:44:38 PM 429 Views
That is an affect of their score not of racial bias - 28/08/2017 02:32:02 PM 372 Views
That's really not what "modern liberal social justice" thinks. - 28/08/2017 06:41:32 AM 294 Views
It may not be what they intend but they ignore the real world consequences - 28/08/2017 02:25:23 PM 432 Views
Re: That's really not what "modern liberal social justice" thinks. - 28/08/2017 03:02:42 PM 423 Views
Only very briefly as I head off to work. - 28/08/2017 04:07:42 PM 298 Views
Well, I can see you're busy - 28/08/2017 04:36:55 PM 400 Views
All else being equal, yes. But that's sometimes difficult to visualize. - 29/08/2017 03:56:56 AM 427 Views
How about a kid who's family endows one or more chairs? Or built the new gym? *NM* - 29/08/2017 05:45:29 AM 204 Views
That's not "all else being equal." *NM* - 29/08/2017 05:35:13 PM 284 Views
I prefer Mott The Hoople *NM* - 24/08/2017 10:42:00 PM 204 Views
Oh look; a bunch of dudes discussing feminism! *NM* - 22/08/2017 11:49:25 PM 242 Views
Just let us know if you need any mansplaining. - 23/08/2017 12:08:55 AM 324 Views
I don't know if you've noticed, but... - 23/08/2017 07:05:10 AM 344 Views
Well - 23/08/2017 09:02:28 AM 419 Views
I tried - 23/08/2017 11:41:00 AM 413 Views
It's odd - 23/08/2017 12:08:34 PM 417 Views
Lol, I wondered how you fit in over here. - 23/08/2017 12:26:05 PM 424 Views
Urban Minnesota is a bit of a haven, too. Plus we have agreeable weather with four seasons! - 23/08/2017 09:29:33 PM 398 Views
Pft, I've seen your mosquitos! *NM* - 24/08/2017 12:57:03 AM 219 Views
This year has been very mild. I think they're going the Way of the Bee. *NM* - 24/08/2017 11:26:10 PM 236 Views
Uhoh - 24/08/2017 11:47:16 PM 388 Views
Nope. Those bastards dont deserve your pity. They are parasites. - 25/08/2017 01:44:45 AM 373 Views
ANYWAY - 25/08/2017 09:30:31 AM 354 Views
Yes the virtues of having both extremes of weather - 25/08/2017 02:31:38 AM 376 Views
Hey! - 25/08/2017 10:41:16 AM 336 Views
Special rights don't lead to equality. *NM* - 23/08/2017 12:14:12 PM 211 Views
Is it even considered possible for cisgender men to be feminist? - 23/08/2017 12:48:28 AM 326 Views
In this particular case, the feminists would appear to have a legitimate point - 23/08/2017 02:54:46 AM 441 Views

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