I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them.
Joel Send a noteboard - 28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
Well, the simple solution there is to just get rid of classes.... 

I wish. But 3rd Edition was built entirely around classes. It was the game's very core.
Once upon a time it seemed perfectly natural that mages should be forever doomed to a -6 penalty with anything but a staff, dagger, dart or sling, that thieves were physically incapable of drawing long bows, that priests would become catatonic if they tried to use anything with an edged, and that fighters alone could use ANY weapon. Because that is how life works: Anyone not formally trained to use weapons is incapable of using more than a handful; anyone WITH such training can use even the most uncommon weapons with only minor difficulty, if any. Only criminals know how to hide, find/disarm traps or even climb a wall without a rope.
Then I discovered there are systems with the revolutionary idea EVERYONE can learn how to do anything to which they devote time, study and practice. Now classes are almost as annoying as the HP thing and the level thing (and those are INCREDIBLY annoying.)
Fourth edition... honestly, it sounds like I would hate it, because all of the old AD&D munchkinizing tendencies are exacerbated by attempts to cater to console gamers looking for naught but XP and powerups.
Oh, I'm sure you'd hate it. So many people do. As Written, I do as well. I just love its core mechanics, but pretty much everything they build onto that is bland as all hell.
I did try it briefly playing rebelaessedais character when she was detained last time I visited her and her hubby. Like I say, I kept looking for the X and Y buttons and trying to figure out which combo attacks were most effective. As far as roleplaying, I do not even recall any in-character conversation, just out-of-character combat positioning and tactical planning.
For mechanics I will probably always like GURPS best because there IS a mechanic, and an eminently logical one, for virtually every imaginable situation. Obviously you have to balance verisimilitude against convenience, and sometimes it just fits the narrative better to say the armory is kept unlocked in case of sudden attack, or the king believes your one of his many soldiers checking his virgin daughters bedchamber because you heard a suspicious noise, without needing to check your Fast Talk against his IQ. Sometimes, however, you are leaping from your pterodactyl in flight and trying to land on then grapple your opponent on his, and something a little more complex than "roll a DX check at -4" is in order.
Oh, good; I was worried we were power-gaming. 

Heh. But like I said, stat progression is far more linear in Editions past 2nd, so the difference between the 31 strength Fire Giant and an 18 Strength fighter is the same as that same fighter would have compared to a Strength 6 character.
The way all stats work in 3rd and 4th Edition is that they give you a +1 bonus to all checks related to that attribute for every two points you put into it. 10 is +0, 18 is +4, 31 is +10.
Linear, fine, but it sounds like just a longer path to the same destination. There are more "grades of suck" (and awesome, and grades in between) but you still end up with a cross between Conan, Mat and Elminster if you accomplish the great challenge of surviving long enough (admittedly quite a challenge in SOME campaigns.

So mid level characters cannot ignore thrashings by high levels ones for a full minute; I guess that is some improvement. The core problem remains though: The mid level character can still absorb far more damage than a low level one; the high level character just inflicts such an overwhelming amount of damage it does no matter. Against anyone less, like the low level character or even an equal level character, we still have a scenario where even if the attacker is consistently hitting an opponent doing nothing more than trying to avoid the blows it will take a while to kill him.
Yeah, but that's fine. If he's doing nothing but trying to avoid blows, then he should be fairly successful against an opponent of a similar level.
Oh, actually if he's doing nothing but avoiding attacks, he should use the total defence action for a +4 to AC.
Yeah, but remember: The attacker is still hitting him DESPITE attempts to avoid the blows. Yeah, OK, he is focused on dodging, parrying, whatever: But it is not working; he is still getting whacked several times per round—and still is not dropping until whacked a ridiculous number of times. How "experienced" do you think you or I would have to be to survive getting hit five times with a broadsword, however nimble we are? Iraq vets are not THAT experienced; no one is.
I am not saying it should never be an option, can never make sense within any gameworld, but it should not be the norm for ALL gameworlds where characters survive long enough. And even if someone like Lan took an Aes Sedais fireball to the face or got hit with balefire he would be as dead as quickly as Baerlon drover.
Pretty sure balefire would be a save-or-die effect anyway

Heh, fair enough, but the fireball would not, and Lan probably would not even need a system check if he were an AD&D character. Not unless he got fireballed in the face by someone like Moridin, and maybe not then; I do not know if it remains true in 3rd and 4th Ed., but in 2nd Ed. fireball was capped at 10d6 damage (cone of cold, OTOH, did 1d4+1/level indefinitely....

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 28/09/2012 at 12:54:32 AM
Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay
07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM
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!!!!!
07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM
- 1425 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once
08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM
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BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO.
08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM
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*revelation*
08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM
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You need not be behind them to assassinate (the high level thief ability.)
08/09/2012 06:04:31 PM
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ahh yes i remember, every hit is a backstab for 30 seconds or something.
08/09/2012 07:07:12 PM
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Right; it is pretty much an instakill, considering the multipliers at the level it becomes available
08/09/2012 09:03:47 PM
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fireballs are so epic in BG1
08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM
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I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent
08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM
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Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt.
08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM
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it was such a liability
08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM
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Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once.
08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM
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There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins...
09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM
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Oops.
09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM
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that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards
09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM
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For sure; it made additional playthroughs fun even after beating the game.
09/09/2012 04:48:40 PM
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Also, FB and Skull Trap are also almost interchangeable until 10th level, but ST damage is uncapped.
09/09/2012 02:02:17 AM
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Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party.
08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM
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well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out
08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM
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Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice
08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM
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Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though?
09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM
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I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM
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Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM
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Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway...
15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM
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That is a good thought; I never played IWD.
16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM
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Where did you think I just got it?
16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM
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How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM
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Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM
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I still like GURPS' character points best.
17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM
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Heh, I'm not surprised.
18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM
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If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes.
18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM
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I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works.
18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM
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I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM
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Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM
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It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM
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Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM
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AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM
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Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM
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Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM
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My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM
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Re: My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM
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I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM
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Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM
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I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them.
28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:45:05 PM
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I thought Yrrth a perfectly fine game world; obviously anything less generic requires some effort.
25/09/2012 12:14:09 AM
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GURPS and TV Tropes are a natural fit, so I will throw in a link to their page on it.
19/09/2012 03:50:37 AM
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I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far.
18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM
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I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1
08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM
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If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods.
08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM
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But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs?
08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM
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Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling.
08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM
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Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy.
09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM
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Well, there are always mods for that.
09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM
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For talking to pretty much anyone, really.
09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM
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True.
09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM
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Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party.
09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM
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there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB
09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM
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I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP.
09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM
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Just how many thieves do you even need?
10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM
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You can get by with half a thief, yeah, but it forces you to forego maxing out some thief abilities.
10/09/2012 06:47:48 PM
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Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM*
10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM
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I am completely stoked about it.
10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM
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TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun.
10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM
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all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee
11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM
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Ah; nice.
11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM
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i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time
12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM
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Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom.
13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM
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If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993.
13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM
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Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM*
13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM
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That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year
. *NM*
13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM
- 733 Views

Fair enough; I was thinking of Doom in terms of when I started playing it and Doom II (1995.)
14/09/2012 03:56:50 PM
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I don't mind the graphics in it
12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM
- 1371 Views
Good, me neither, but I have heard others criticize them.
12/09/2012 11:51:16 PM
- 1263 Views
I used the PS3 web browser as my primary browser for about 3 months
13/09/2012 01:13:22 PM
- 1287 Views
*nods* I suspected as much, but had no first hand experience confirming it.
14/09/2012 04:03:15 PM
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I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related.
10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM
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And it now has been delayed till Nov
*NM*
15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM
- 723 Views

On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul
15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM
- 1363 Views