Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM
I was speaking in terms of 2nd Ed., where anything but a greatsword or polearm limits the 20th level fighter to no more (and in most cases less) damage dice per attack than the 10th level fighter has hit dice per level.
Ah. Well, as I've said, my experience in 2nd Edition is nearly exclusively 1st or 2nd level, so I can't help you there. I really don't want to try figuring out how I would accomplish such a thing either, since I can't say I remember that Edition's rules too well. But I can assure you that it is not a problem in later Editions, which are the ones I'd be playing.
I also ignored bonuses for the sake of simplicity, though I think they tend to favor the defender; if the 20th level fighter gets a damage bonus from Str, the 10th level gets a Dex bonus to AC to avoid each attack PLUS Con bonuses to each of his 10 hit dice.
In 3rd Ed, a fighter would get 1.5x his Str. bonus when wielding a weapon two handed, and because you get a bonus stat point at every 4 levels, he'd have better scores at 20th level than at 10th level. Dexterity bonus caps out at +2 for full plate and mail, so you couldn't benefit too greatly from that, so there would be a better differential in attack/AC that could be exploited further with Power Attack. But yes, the Constitution bonus would be greater benefit than the strength modifier. Still not enough to survive two rounds, I don't think.
Incidentally, I gave the guy a Tower Shield, but nobody uses them in 3rd Edition because they force a -2 to the wielder's attacks.
Perhaps that is the difference then; I admit I have not continued any characters that far, but have known many who did. My usual GM back in the day had an archmage he ran for 5 years straight before retiring him at 20th level and a gameworld status similar to Elminsters. I think that contributed to him running us through some incredibly low magic and high level campaigns; he was the guy who sent a 2nd-3rd level party to Ravenloft because he had a hardon for the place, even though the sum total of our magical gear consisted of a dagger+1 and a long sword+2 we had only just acquired. Anyway, my point is that if you stick with the character and are good/lucky enough to avoid getting killed, sooner or later you will end up with that demigod; since level drain is not permanent, that is all but guaranteed.
Hmm, but unless I misunderstand, isn't that precisely the point? I thought that ascension was the player's reward for surviving through twenty levels?
If you prefer world-building to game mechanics though GURPS has much to offer, because once you have the rules down they are so thorough and logical the game almost runs itself; it is just a matter of getting to the point you know the many rules that well. Then you are free to design literally any world(s) imaginable (as you may have gleaned from Macharius' comments, some would say it is obligatory) with rules ready to hand for anything characters might do there.
Maybe, but the way you describe it sounds like a lot of work to figure out as a GM. 4th Edition is ridiculously simple - that's its critical flaw in the rules as written, the reason every D&D player rightly says it sucks - so I can pretty much do anything I want with it. I can even dispense with the Class system entirely, without too much difficulty. Right now I'm not doing that, I'm making an all-Wizard setting that's basically a callback to earlier edition Wizards since they were so sorely misused in 4th Edition, but I was thinking of doing something like that for a StarCraft setting I occasionally tinker with.
Of course, D&D is based around the assumption of combat, so if I wanted to run something with a different style, like my current LotR game, or a mystery, then I'd probably have to use a different system. But as for settings, I have no problem.
I do not want a game where it MUST happen, I just do not want one where it CANNOT happen. I want that level of realism to make it believable and not controlled by whims, rather than an exercise in mental masturbation (or perhaps a mental circle jerk, as the case may be. ) I do not want a world where the characters ignominious deaths are an imminent certainty (the low-level low-magic Ravenloft campaign was like that, and no one enjoyed it except the GM who never had to worry about characters breaking his campaign, because it broke them.) I just also do not want a world where the characters heroic immortal triumph is an imminent certainty either. The drama, and thus the fun, lies somewhere in the middle.
And I've always managed to run my D&D games in that middle. So again, while I accept your preferences, you do realise they're just your preference, and not an actual flawed system?
I believe 2nd Ed. used both terms, just like fighters=warriors, mages=wizards and priests=clerics.
Oh yeah, they had subgroups. Rogues included Thieves and Bards, Warriors included Fighters, Paladins and Rangers, Priests included Clerics and Druids, and Wizards included Mages, Abjurers, Conjurers (etc.).
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Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
~Master Splinter
Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay
07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM
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!!!!!
07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM
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I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once
08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM
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BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO.
08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM
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*revelation*
08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM
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You need not be behind them to assassinate (the high level thief ability.)
08/09/2012 06:04:31 PM
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ahh yes i remember, every hit is a backstab for 30 seconds or something.
08/09/2012 07:07:12 PM
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Right; it is pretty much an instakill, considering the multipliers at the level it becomes available
08/09/2012 09:03:47 PM
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fireballs are so epic in BG1
08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM
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I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent
08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM
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Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt.
08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM
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it was such a liability
08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM
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Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once.
08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM
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There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins...
09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM
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Oops.
09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM
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that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards
09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM
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For sure; it made additional playthroughs fun even after beating the game.
09/09/2012 04:48:40 PM
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Also, FB and Skull Trap are also almost interchangeable until 10th level, but ST damage is uncapped.
09/09/2012 02:02:17 AM
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Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party.
08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM
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well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out
08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM
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Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice
08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM
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Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though?
09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM
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I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM
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Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM
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Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway...
15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM
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That is a good thought; I never played IWD.
16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM
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Where did you think I just got it?
16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM
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How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM
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Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM
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I still like GURPS' character points best.
17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM
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Heh, I'm not surprised.
18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM
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If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes.
18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM
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I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works.
18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM
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I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM
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Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM
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It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM
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Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM
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AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM
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Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM
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Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM
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My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM
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Re: My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM
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I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM
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Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM
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Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.]
27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM
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I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them.
28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:45:05 PM
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I thought Yrrth a perfectly fine game world; obviously anything less generic requires some effort.
25/09/2012 12:14:09 AM
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GURPS and TV Tropes are a natural fit, so I will throw in a link to their page on it.
19/09/2012 03:50:37 AM
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I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far.
18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM
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I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1
08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM
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If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods.
08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM
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But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs?
08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM
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Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling.
08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM
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Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy.
09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM
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Well, there are always mods for that.
09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM
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For talking to pretty much anyone, really.
09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM
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True.
09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM
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Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party.
09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM
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there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB
09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM
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I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP.
09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM
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Just how many thieves do you even need?
10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM
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You can get by with half a thief, yeah, but it forces you to forego maxing out some thief abilities.
10/09/2012 06:47:48 PM
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Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM*
10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM
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I am completely stoked about it.
10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM
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TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun.
10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM
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all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee
11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM
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Ah; nice.
11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM
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i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time
12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM
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Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom.
13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM
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If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993.
13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM
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Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM*
13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM
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That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM*
13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM
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Fair enough; I was thinking of Doom in terms of when I started playing it and Doom II (1995.)
14/09/2012 03:56:50 PM
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I don't mind the graphics in it
12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM
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Good, me neither, but I have heard others criticize them.
12/09/2012 11:51:16 PM
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I used the PS3 web browser as my primary browser for about 3 months
13/09/2012 01:13:22 PM
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*nods* I suspected as much, but had no first hand experience confirming it.
14/09/2012 04:03:15 PM
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I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related.
10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM
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And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM*
15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM
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On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul
15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM
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