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Re: My point is no one should be at any level. Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM
Anyway, since 'level' is a completely metagame and arbitrary term, there is no reason to fight grossly underleveled opponents unless the intended result is to show that they pose no challenge. So yes, if your desire is to provide terrible encounters, then D&D will allow you to fulfill your wishes. But it is not a flaw in the system that it allows you to accomplish your desired goal.

There are far better ways to avoid that than making advanced characters so tough they can survive anything short of having a house dropped on them. I mean, really, even with average hit dice rolls and no Con bonus a 10th level fighter has about 55 HP. That means if a 20th level fighter comes up and hits him 10 times with a sword, the 10th level character will probably still be standing: There is simply no way to kill an alert high level character quickly short of some kind of Deathspell.


55 hit points?

Assuming no strength bonus (except for the purpose of feat selection), no magic weapons, and no multiclassing (which is pretty contrary to the core ideal of 3rd Edition which I despised, but nevertheless) - incidentally, a single-classed fighter is one of the worst builds you can possibly conceive of at high levels - you can still get a two-handed sword (2d6 damage), and a selection of Core Rulebook feats, let's say Improved Critical, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation (for a total of 6 out of a 20th level fighter's 18-19 feats), this fighter would attack each round at +23/+18/+13/+8 and deal 2d6+6 damage with critical hits for double damage on on rolls of 17-20.

Being generous and giving your 10th level fighter the best armour available (but neither dex bonus nor magical protection) he would have 10+8(Full Plate and Mail)+4(Tower Shield)+1(Dodge feat)=23. with an average of 10(.5) on rolls, the 20th level fighter would hit for 33/28/23 and then miss with 18. With an average of 13 damage per hit (without counting criticals, which I remind you occur on confirmed rolls of 17+) that's 3x13 per round or 39, but if you use your Power Attack feat to give yourself a -5 to attacks, you will still strike twice on average, but with +10 damage to both of those attacks, for 23x2=46 damage, either way dropping your 10th level fighter in 2 rounds, assuming average rolls.

And this is a terrible, terrible build. Even the most inept player will have a stronger character at that level, if only because he'll have put points in Strength. Now if you want a fighter actually designed to deal damage, you can just go googling, 3rd Edition was adored for that kind of min-maxing.

In 4th Edition, there's a 19th level Fighter Power called Reaving Strike which deals 5xWeapon damage, so assuming no strength bonus and no magical weapons, the feats Power Attack and Weapon Focus for +3 damage, a two-handed sword (1d10 damage in this game) would deal 42.5 damage on average, only not one-hit killing the 10th level fighter because the lack of damage modifiers from strength [EDIT: Fail. I forgot Strength was added after the multiplication, so only the magic weapon bonuses would get multiplied] or magic somewhat cripples the multiplying effect of Reaving Strike. Although, by using an action point to act again, he could still use another Power to finish the job in that single round.

To be fair, a 10th level fighter in 4th Edition would have 69+Con hit points (79, in our example here) rather than 55. But also on the other hand, fighters are a class designed to absorb damage rather than deal it out.

It just makes things faster; anyone with the knowledge and desire to min/max and rules lawyer (which AD&D pratically encourages, IMHO,) will get there sooner or later, even if occasional bad rolls and/or decisions force them to through a couple characters first. How many people do you know who have "retired" how many characters simply because it was no longer any fun to play them?


Heh, actually we've never got there. I've told you already how it was when we were younger in 2nd Edition and early on in 3rd. 3rd Edition was where it got more stable, most games there ended eitehr because the players lost their character sheets, or because my DMing love goes more to the world-building than the actual campaign running and every once in a while I stop running games for seasons on end to design a new setting. My last 3rd Edition was going great when the Edition change happened. And the 4th Edition games I played were all one-shots to familiarise ourselves with the rules while I started building up my homebrewed stuff, which should be complete by the end of the year. In the meantime we've been playing the other DM's White Wolf stuff, Call of Cthulhu, or the LotR roleplaying game (which is the ongoing game I'm currently GMing). So yeah, I haven't had that experience yet :P.

Scaling is less an issue (up to a point...) than practical invulnerability to anything and everything NOT scaled. Same reason none of my BG fighters ever took that High Level Ability that autokills anything <12th level: By the time they were high enough to get HLAs, they autokilled everything <12th level unaided. In the real world, Patton could beat Rommel in North Africa, conquer Sicily and lead the Allies to victory at the Battle of the Bulge only to snap his neck falling off the seat in a minor car accident and be killed weeks after the war ended. Again, impossible in AD&D, because epic level characters are invulnerable to anything but other epic level characters.


But why would you want to run a game where a character dies from falling off his seat? I mean, I can accept that you would, but that's clearly an issue of personal preference, not an objective quality issue.

Yeah, I WOULD do that, except my parties are always so heavily stealth oriented fireballs have limited use. Even when I just sneak in a F/T and a straight class Thief it is bad enough, and by the time I get to SoA (or Tutu) I have a Stalker into the bargain, so I have to choose between three backstabs or nuking half my party along with the bad guys. I cannot do both, because Hide in Shadows/Move Silently rolls automatically fail in the presence of an enemy, so unless I can drop the fireball then race into position to backstab a moving target before exposure I must forego the fireball.


Yeah, I didn't have that problem since I didn't use Rogues (or Thieves, as I think they were actually called back in 2nd Ed). Instead, there was this one divination spell I seem to recall using to spot enemy groups and fire are of effect spells from outside their field of vision so they didn't react in time.
The first rule of being a ninja is "do no harm". Unless you intend to do harm, then do lots of harm.
~Master Splinter

Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
This message last edited by Fanatic-Templar on 25/09/2012 at 03:48:20 AM
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2694 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1338 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1295 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1316 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1436 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1308 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1265 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1310 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1412 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1245 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1287 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1228 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1324 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1316 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1289 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1202 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1283 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1394 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1404 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1373 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1482 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1327 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1355 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1386 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1285 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1231 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1228 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1409 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1278 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1274 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1487 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1369 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1712 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1326 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1366 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1292 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1586 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1276 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1513 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1401 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1515 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1529 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1323 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1446 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1468 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1324 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1939 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1261 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1227 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1160 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1444 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1328 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1219 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1232 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1265 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1360 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1227 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1177 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1279 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1280 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1226 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1170 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1282 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1240 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1314 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1262 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1256 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 695 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1221 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1208 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1307 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1235 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1307 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1188 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1206 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1330 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1225 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1286 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1255 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 711 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 707 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 690 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1287 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1200 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1245 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1166 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 685 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1273 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1236 Views

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