Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
Fanatic-Templar Send a noteboard - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM
It is completely irrational to say one is so experienced and capable virtually NO amount of low level opponents presents a challenge. If Richard the Lionheart or Napoleon went out to fight ten peasants conscripted last week, what do you think would happen? In AD&D the famous generals would slaughter their ten opponents in short order, then be mad because they got practically no loot or experience. In the real world two regional powers would need new heads of state.
So your point is that fighters should be perpetually stuck at first level, only Wizards should grow in power? Isn't that stupidly imbalanced?
Anyway, since 'level' is a completely metagame and arbitrary term, there is no reason to fight grossly underleveled opponents unless the intended result is to show that they pose no challenge. So yes, if your desire is to provide terrible encounters, then D&D will allow you to fulfill your wishes. But it is not a flaw in the system that it allows you to accomplish your desired goal.
A good example is your frustration at lacking magical weapons during the first Athkatla vampire fight and not wanting summon Cowled Wizards by using magic. After min/maxing another party through TotSC last year then revisiting SoA, my first thought when reading that was "just kill them, too." Irenicus did, and after replicating all the tomes and loading up with all the best gear, even half a party at 10th level was sufficient for me to do the same when I decided to see if I could—I did not even need a spellcaster. The only reason NOT to was that I did not want my Reputation trashed the next time I went to a shop. In terms of challenge... there ARE no combat challenges for that party, probably why I never bothered to finish the game again. It is not like push button dialogue allows much roleplaying.
I could download Gatekeeper and build a character that deals thousands of damage every hit and has impregnable armor class and saving throws and magic resistance, and that would also make the game pretty easy. Cheating makes things easier, I'm not sure what this is supposed to be a good example of.
Honestly, from your description, I think you should give GURPS a shot, though I suggest playing rather than running it for a while if possible, because it takes some time and experience to digest all the combinations of rules. However, it has a darned good and fairly simple core, and mostly eliminates the need to fiat most fluff (the simple core makes it fairly easy to improvise with the few exceptions.) Ultimately it comes down to where you want to invest the work, either in learning a complex systems rules for multitudinous contingencies, or devising your own as needed.
The biggest appeal of GURPS for me, apart from realism, is the freedom to use any gameworld without needing a new set of rules. Obviously some stuff is world specific (e.g. channeling in TWoT,) but there are worldbooks for that, which mostly consist of "use this rule to cover this, optionally modified with this tweak to better replicate the specific world." Just googling around for this discussion turned up GURPS versions of:
A Greyhawk campaign, complete with demi-human races,
Generic versions of Frealms demi-humans and
MERP/ICE races for use in a TLotR campaign.
The one I would most like to try is a Prisoner campaign, but I do not know anyone here who uses GURPS, and my Prisoner worldbook is on the wrong side of the ocean. I always enjoyed the series though, and the prospect of a campaign where combat is rare, and invariably supplemental to the in depth mental conflicts and challenges, is very appealing
The biggest appeal of GURPS for me, apart from realism, is the freedom to use any gameworld without needing a new set of rules. Obviously some stuff is world specific (e.g. channeling in TWoT,) but there are worldbooks for that, which mostly consist of "use this rule to cover this, optionally modified with this tweak to better replicate the specific world." Just googling around for this discussion turned up GURPS versions of:
A Greyhawk campaign, complete with demi-human races,
Generic versions of Frealms demi-humans and
MERP/ICE races for use in a TLotR campaign.
The one I would most like to try is a Prisoner campaign, but I do not know anyone here who uses GURPS, and my Prisoner worldbook is on the wrong side of the ocean. I always enjoyed the series though, and the prospect of a campaign where combat is rare, and invariably supplemental to the in depth mental conflicts and challenges, is very appealing
Your descriptions of GURPS thus far have not made it sound very attractive to me . Especially that there is no chance of me bringing up a new system to my group unless I am willing to GM it.
Like I say, the freedom to say, "rocks fall..." alters the paradigm a bit, but hopefully it seldom comes to that in your campaigns. Beyond a certain point though... once THAC0 reaches 0 and the fighters are pulling 3/1, what do you do to keep it challenging? Throw in spells without saves, off the scale AC/THAC0, level drains behind every corner? Theoretically you can keep it challenging as long as you keep increasing the difficulty, sure, but if the characters keep getting more powerful after a while they are fighting nothing but gods and tarrasques. The core problem, the one that wrecks verisimilitude (and thus fun,) is that they can and will go cuisinart on anything less, and that never goes away, only gets worse.
Well, I never played high-level 2nd Edition, back then we were all quite young and every game we had some new character we wanted to try out so we kept restarting new games at 1st level all the time. Not surprisingly, I'm the only person who went through that era still willing to play Wizards.
In 3rd of 4th Edition, if you want to keep to the same scale, you can do that too, just give your kobolds and goblins warrior and adept levels, maybe a few fighters, rangers and rogues too. A sorcerer priest. A Dragon god that watches over their tribe. Have them inhabit the ruins of an advanced civilisation with all sorts of deadly traps and constructs or bound extraplanar guardians. Or you can move up the scale so that they're now travelling the multiverse and fighting in the Nine Hells and what not. Usually, changing the setting so the players both feel more powerful but aren't overpowering is the best bet. Once they get too powerful for the militia in that tiny village they started out in, there's really no reason to stay. The threats are inconsequential, the rewards are trivial, it's time to move on. So then they can get to a great city where they can earn greater fame and fortune, but also contains trained soldiers, royal knights, orders of priests and paladins, cadres of wizards, etc. Players want to be challenged, so they'll naturally migrate to places that are more challenging, there really very little you need to do to help them.
*nods* That is much of the boon and bane of BG for AD&D 2nd ed. vets: You already know many of the tricks the game relies on ignorance of to provide challenges. I am not really sure why the fight on the way into the Cloakwood mines gave me trouble, because it should not REQUIRE poison arrows for the mages (though they do make it far easier.) Maybe I was just not high enough yet to hit the mages regularly, because on my first run I was focused on finishing the game ASAP rather than exploring every nook and cranny (which tends to boost XP.) Those explosive arrows though... I have been known to have the whole party fire them at things that REALLY made me mad.
I generally open with fireballs. Until Shadows of Amn, Wizards don't have Spheres of Invulnerability all the time, and with their laughable hit points, they're generally gone from the beginning of combat .
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Victorious in Bergioyn's legendary 'Reverse Mafia'. *MySmiley*
Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay
07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM
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!!!!!
07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM
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I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once
08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM
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BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO.
08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM
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*revelation*
08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM
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You need not be behind them to assassinate (the high level thief ability.)
08/09/2012 06:04:31 PM
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ahh yes i remember, every hit is a backstab for 30 seconds or something.
08/09/2012 07:07:12 PM
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Right; it is pretty much an instakill, considering the multipliers at the level it becomes available
08/09/2012 09:03:47 PM
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fireballs are so epic in BG1
08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM
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I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent
08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM
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Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt.
08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM
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it was such a liability
08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM
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Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once.
08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM
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There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins...
09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM
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Oops.
09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM
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that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards
09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM
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For sure; it made additional playthroughs fun even after beating the game.
09/09/2012 04:48:40 PM
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Also, FB and Skull Trap are also almost interchangeable until 10th level, but ST damage is uncapped.
09/09/2012 02:02:17 AM
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Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party.
08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM
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well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out
08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM
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Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice
08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM
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Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though?
09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM
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I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM
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Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack.
10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM
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Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway...
15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM
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That is a good thought; I never played IWD.
16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM
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Where did you think I just got it?
16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM
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How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM
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Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties?
17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM
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I still like GURPS' character points best.
17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM
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Heh, I'm not surprised.
18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM
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If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes.
18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM
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I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works.
18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM
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I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM
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Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run.
19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM
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It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM
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Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...."
20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM
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AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM
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Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters.
24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM
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Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM
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My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM
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Re: My point is no one should be at any level.
25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM
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I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM
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Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store.
25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM
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26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM
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26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM
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27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM
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27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM
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I did not realize how awful classes were until liberated from them.
28/09/2012 12:49:14 AM
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Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes.
24/09/2012 08:45:05 PM
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I thought Yrrth a perfectly fine game world; obviously anything less generic requires some effort.
25/09/2012 12:14:09 AM
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GURPS and TV Tropes are a natural fit, so I will throw in a link to their page on it.
19/09/2012 03:50:37 AM
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I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far.
18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM
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I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1
08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM
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If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods.
08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM
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But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs?
08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM
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Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling.
08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM
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Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy.
09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM
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Well, there are always mods for that.
09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM
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For talking to pretty much anyone, really.
09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM
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True.
09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM
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Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party.
09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM
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there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB
09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM
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I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP.
09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM
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Just how many thieves do you even need?
10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM
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You can get by with half a thief, yeah, but it forces you to forego maxing out some thief abilities.
10/09/2012 06:47:48 PM
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Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM*
10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM
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I am completely stoked about it.
10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM
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TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun.
10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM
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all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee
11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM
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Ah; nice.
11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM
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i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time
12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM
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Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom.
13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM
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If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993.
13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM
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Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM*
13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM
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That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM*
13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM
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Fair enough; I was thinking of Doom in terms of when I started playing it and Doom II (1995.)
14/09/2012 03:56:50 PM
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I don't mind the graphics in it
12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM
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Good, me neither, but I have heard others criticize them.
12/09/2012 11:51:16 PM
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I used the PS3 web browser as my primary browser for about 3 months
13/09/2012 01:13:22 PM
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*nods* I suspected as much, but had no first hand experience confirming it.
14/09/2012 04:03:15 PM
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I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related.
10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM
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And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM*
15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM
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On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul
15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM
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