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AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM
Heroes should certainly be larger than life, hence GURPS PCs are 100 point characters rather than the 25 points considered average. However, if they (or their players) alter space and time at will that is not "triumphing against all odds," but against NO odds, automatically.

Thankfully nobody ever suggested anything like that. Well, some probably did, actually. And I do remember that Mage: The Ascension sounded interesting, for a White Wolf game. But that's certainly not the case in D&D. You have built up an encounter where a 10th level character faces 12 creatures that have a 1/4 Challenge Rating. It is absurd to blame the system because you've designed an unchallenging encounter that is, by the metric of that very system you're criticising, unchallenging.

That actually makes it worse, because the only way to prevent such unbalanced encounters is to effectively say, "after characters hit 10th level they only encounter NPCs that are level 8+." That is even more absurd than letting them slaughter 1st level NPCs en masse. The inherent problem is that level systems inevitably allows high level characters to puree a practically unlimited number of low level ones. It certainly cuts both ways; a single 10th level NPC would quickly annihilate even a large party of low level PCs (remind me some time to tell you about my first trip to Ravenloft, where my 5th level thief was the most experienced character in a party consisting of him, a 3rd level fighter, and a bunch of 2nd levels; after my death in the second session everyone just stopped coming.... :rolleyes:)

Levels just make advanced characters too powerful, though it is no surprise they are quite popular with console and other arcade style gamers. In fact, I have heard it alleged that AD&D 4th ed. is little more than a computer "RPG" with pen and paper, and my admittedly limited experience with it corroborates that: The range of character action is surprisingly (and for any legitimate roleplaying, appallingly) limited, particularly given that the specific acts are quite complex and diverse. It is just that, y'know, 90% of them boil down to either hitting or casting a spell at something; I cannot help wondering if the most common criticism from fans is "I wish there were a way to just tell the GM, 'A,B,A,A,left,B.'" :P One of the many downsides of WotC buying TSR. :[

On the subject of White Wolf (and I concede it has been a while since I bothered looking at their stuff,) every one of their Storyteller line I have seen suffered the same above derided failing. The only improvement is that they bothered little with rules and numerical stat checks, since they intended from the outset to ignore such things for the sake of the story anyway. I could probably tolerate that (though it is still far too arbitrary for my taste) if "the story" consisted of anything more than the characters doing anything and everything the players considered fun (i.e. ego-stroking) and Mutually Assured Deification. To the extent the latter is even necessary when the GM routinely ignores the rules to let the characters perform any and all superhuman acts necessary to "win at roleplaying."

Heroic characters should have exceptional, but still limited, abilities. They should be capable of amazing acts and accomplishments, yet within a fixed framework, because that is what makes the achievements impressive, memorable and therefore FUN. If characters are nigh-omnipotent demigods, what is the point?

I suspect you've been playing the game wrong. I've been killing "nigh-omnipotent demigods" for three Editions now, and this despite never setting out with the intent to kill anyone.

I suspect your GM has been letting you get away with (fictional) murder, possibly because s/he thinks it "roleplaying." A hack 'n slash party in a hack 'n slash systems is bad, but a roleplaying party with a hack 'n slash GM is worse, because they spend all their time fighting whether they like it or not. They also quickly discover their characters live in "Dungeon World," where the few villages exist only to provide adventure seeds leading to (supposedly) abandoned castle/temple/crypts.

Campaign design in GURPS is very challenging for hack 'n slash GMs, because they are forced to find interesting NONVIOLENT character activity, and ways to challenge players without combat (i.e. they actually have to ROLEPLAY rather than running through the "kill, loot, level" cycle ad nauseam.) Fortunately, the various world books are loaded with suggestions of campaign-appropriate ways to do that. In any campaign though, if the GM keeps throwing bandits and traps at the party, sooner rather than later a series of unlucky rolls will kill one or more of the characters. No character is likely to have a HT >12, and even a 500 point character is unlikely to have one much >15, which limits the damage they can absorb before incapacitation. Anything that does >20 damage apiece is an almost certain TPW. You can get away with lots of combat and/or high damage in cinematic campaigns (e.g. Supers,) but only because the rules of those settings allow for mitigating or completely avoiding the effects.

Baldurs Gate actuall offers a good example: The battle in the Iron Thrones HQ, or even those in their Cloakwood mines, provided me far more challenges, thus fun, thus lasting memories, than bumrushing dragons and vampires in SoA. I have almost NO memory of ToB, because by the time I reached it my characters were all so powerful they destroyed pretty much all the bosses instantly, from start to finish. One of my best memories of the series was the first run through Durlags Tower, because no combination of low saves, AC and THAC0 allows you to short circuit a comples series of traps and puzzles (which it seemed like Bioware largely phoned in for SoA and ToB, though the Big Metal Unit was a nice bonus for anyone who played the whole series and could find all the components.)

Neither of those encounters were particularly memorable to me. I've said below that Baldur's Gate is a very easy game, and that's without making six min/maxed characters as you do. Those few times I've been seriously screwed in the game are:

I did not use Multiplayer on my first run, but NPCs (hence I was royally pissed when I saw how badly they screwed up Corans proficiencies at 5th level.)

The encounter with that mage on the steps of the Friendly Arm Inn, and that just boils down to the fact that his high-level Magic Missile will pretty much always instantly kill any level 1 character, so it comes down to whether I can interrupt his Mirror Image spell, kill all his Mirror Images before he casts the Magic Missile, or hit him with a Sleep/Charm spell.

Yeah, that one is tricky more because of when it occurs than due to inherent difficulty. If you pick up Montaron and Xzar on the way you can have the latter throw a Magic Missile while you, Imoen and Montaron use missile weapons, and that should take out the mirrors and start inflicting damage before he can get off another spell, but you have to waste a few hobgoblins for bows and arrows, because you cannot afford to buy the former for all your characters with starting GP. I honestly cannot remember if the scripting lets you go in for a backstab as long as everyone in his LoS is hidden; BG bosses often do not, but that is my preferred means of dealing with mages when they do.

The Vampire attack early in Shadows of Amn, and that's not so much that the encounter is difficult, but rather that I had wasted so much time travelling around Athkatla that when they attacked, I had only one weapon capable of hurting them, and using magic on them would only cause Cowled Wizards to pop up and join the Vampires.

Strange; seemed like magic weapons were a dime a dozen in SoA, as is usually the case in high magic hack 'n slash.

Actually, Greywolf murdered me a ton the first time I played, too.

Yeah, Greywolf is nasty unless you have a large party and/or more fighters than just you and Minsc. I counted it out once and he has something like 90+ HP, which is just ridiculous for the level of the party at that point, especially since it requires a level that gives him pretty good saves.

The Cloakwood and Iron Throne fights were kind of like a combination of that though, with a couple nasty fighters AND spellcasters. After my first run through they were much easier, because I had been around the block enough to stock up on poison arrows before fighting mages. Poison makes everything easier, because the high rate of fire for specced characters combined with the high AC of mages mean they just go "urk!" every round till they die, without ever getting off a spell, allowing me to double team the fighters with the rest of the party. Clerics can be tricky, because they have decent armor, but an early backstab prevents them casting long enough for me to poison the mages and turn my bows on them.
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Baldurs Gate Enhanced Edition: Edit 2 with added video & launch delay - 07/09/2012 09:48:16 PM 2694 Views
!!!!! - 07/09/2012 10:49:47 PM 1338 Views
are they created kindly or cruelly? - 08/09/2012 05:34:36 PM 1295 Views
Lol! Realistically, if exaggerated to heroic levels. - 09/09/2012 07:56:32 PM 1316 Views
I played the hell out of BG2, but only played BG1 once - 08/09/2012 06:07:15 AM 1437 Views
BGI is a lot more fun because a lot more challenging, IMHO. - 08/09/2012 02:33:17 PM 1308 Views
*revelation* - 08/09/2012 05:45:28 PM 1265 Views
fireballs are so epic in BG1 - 08/09/2012 05:41:34 PM 1311 Views
I disagree about it being the only good third level spell;lighting bolt and haste are also excellent - 08/09/2012 06:26:08 PM 1412 Views
Yeah, I loved Lightning Bolt. - 08/09/2012 06:44:59 PM 1245 Views
it was such a liability - 08/09/2012 07:11:36 PM 1287 Views
Bouncing is what makes lightning bolts great, because you get to hit people more than once. - 08/09/2012 08:59:10 PM 1228 Views
There's an unfortunate Wizard in the Firewine Bridge Ruins... - 09/09/2012 12:58:18 AM 1324 Views
Oops. - 09/09/2012 01:43:23 AM 1317 Views
that's why BG1 was so awesome. exploration=rewards - 09/09/2012 09:09:22 AM 1289 Views
Yeah, got to keep one of each on hand. - 08/09/2012 08:57:31 PM 1202 Views
Multi-player was actually pretty simple if you just used it to create your whole party. - 08/09/2012 02:19:35 PM 1283 Views
well yeah, because there was no connection to figure out - 08/09/2012 06:59:49 PM 1394 Views
Right; I was never a big multiplayer fan anyway, but customized parties were nice - 08/09/2012 08:53:45 PM 1404 Views
Where's the fun in having a customized party and losing all the character interaction, though? - 09/09/2012 04:03:10 PM 1373 Views
I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 09/09/2012 04:45:12 PM 1482 Views
Re: I dislike most of the BG NPCs anyway, so I do not much feel the lack. - 10/09/2012 01:23:44 PM 1327 Views
Agreed. - 11/09/2012 07:01:07 PM 1355 Views
Suggestion since you're not using the NPCs anyway... - 15/09/2012 11:34:28 PM 1386 Views
That is a good thought; I never played IWD. - 16/09/2012 03:31:01 AM 1285 Views
Where did you think I just got it? - 16/09/2012 04:39:43 PM 1231 Views
How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 06:57:19 PM 1228 Views
Re: How would I know you just got a game released in the late nineties? - 17/09/2012 11:08:09 PM 1410 Views
I still like GURPS' character points best. - 17/09/2012 11:40:12 PM 1278 Views
Heh, I'm not surprised. - 18/09/2012 01:47:55 AM 1274 Views
If you want to avoid hyperspecialization, avoid classes. - 18/09/2012 07:36:43 AM 1487 Views
I've never played GURPS, so I don't know how its system works. - 18/09/2012 03:32:21 PM 1369 Views
I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 03:37:19 AM 1712 Views
Re: I recommend it, but it is a bear to run. - 19/09/2012 08:35:24 AM 1326 Views
It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 19/09/2012 10:58:31 PM 1366 Views
Re: It is the difference between "what if...?" and "whatever...." - 20/09/2012 12:31:10 AM 1292 Views
AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 05:53:39 AM 1587 Views
Re: AD&D cannot avoid one-sided encounters without restricting epic characters to epic encounters. - 24/09/2012 07:03:39 AM 1276 Views
Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 08:33:23 AM 1513 Views
Re: Things are a little different if you are the GM, yes. - 24/09/2012 07:24:51 PM 1401 Views
My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 01:23:21 AM 1515 Views
Re: My point is no one should be at any level. - 25/09/2012 03:41:42 AM 1529 Views
I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 05:16:49 AM 1323 Views
Re: I know no more about AD&D 3rd Ed. than I retain from skimming the book a few times in a store. - 25/09/2012 06:05:39 PM 1446 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 08:12:05 AM 1468 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 26/09/2012 05:48:34 PM 1324 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 10:26:16 AM 1939 Views
Re: [Insert relevant subject line here.] - 27/09/2012 05:23:13 PM 1261 Views
I can't speak for IWD I, but II is okay on the story front so far. - 18/09/2012 06:36:16 PM 1227 Views
Nah, IWD I barely had any story at all. - 18/09/2012 08:16:49 PM 1160 Views
agreed - 19/09/2012 09:42:28 AM 1444 Views
I've still only played about 4 hours of BG1 - 08/09/2012 03:59:49 PM 1328 Views
If you have not yet, you should look into the Weidu mods. - 08/09/2012 06:12:20 PM 1219 Views
But what's the point in playing the game if you don't use the NPCs? - 08/09/2012 06:47:38 PM 1232 Views
agreed the NPCs are half the fun - 08/09/2012 07:02:22 PM 1265 Views
Not having a bunch of potentially useful but AI ruined incompetents constantly fumbling. - 08/09/2012 08:55:53 PM 1360 Views
Yeah, but optimising the whole group sounds ridiculously easy. - 09/09/2012 01:03:51 AM 1227 Views
Well, there are always mods for that. - 09/09/2012 01:37:42 AM 1177 Views
For talking to pretty much anyone, really. - 09/09/2012 03:20:29 AM 1279 Views
True. - 09/09/2012 03:46:24 AM 1280 Views
Well, I usually don't have thieves in my party. - 09/09/2012 04:56:21 AM 1226 Views
there wasn't a good enough thief option in bg2/ToB - 09/09/2012 09:15:21 AM 1170 Views
I noticed that also; another argument for creating a party via MP even if you move it back to SP. - 09/09/2012 11:45:12 PM 1282 Views
storyline man! - 10/09/2012 01:43:51 PM 1240 Views
I make my OWN storyline. - 10/09/2012 06:35:43 PM 1314 Views
Just how many thieves do you even need? - 10/09/2012 06:22:58 PM 1262 Views
The stealth skills come in very handy though. - 09/09/2012 04:11:40 PM 1257 Views
Any suggested parties for beginners? *NM* - 10/09/2012 01:13:38 AM 695 Views
I plan to do custom characters for the other 6 slots - 10/09/2012 01:42:41 AM 1221 Views
There are no "other" six slots - there are six slots, period. - 10/09/2012 06:24:33 PM 1208 Views
well, absolute standard would be: - 10/09/2012 01:35:15 PM 1308 Views
My own recommendation would be: - 10/09/2012 07:36:04 PM 1235 Views
I am completely stoked about it. - 10/09/2012 07:07:09 PM 1308 Views
TotSC made BGI a LOT more fun. - 10/09/2012 07:46:03 PM 1188 Views
all the kits/races/dual wielding etc will be available in bgee - 11/09/2012 09:02:35 AM 1206 Views
Ah; nice. - 11/09/2012 06:57:14 PM 1330 Views
i'm not sure they were even state of the art at the time - 12/09/2012 09:26:05 AM 1225 Views
Remember, BGI was released only about two years after Doom. - 13/09/2012 12:05:11 AM 1286 Views
If by "two" you mean "five," then yes. DOOM was released in 1993. - 13/09/2012 03:22:58 PM 1255 Views
Ah, 1998. The golden year. Ocarina of Time. Starcraft. Half-Life. *NM* - 13/09/2012 04:16:21 PM 711 Views
Can't believe I forgot about HALF-LIFE. *NM* - 13/09/2012 09:06:55 PM 707 Views
That just reminds me of how sad it is that StarCraft died this year . *NM* - 13/09/2012 11:55:28 PM 690 Views
I don't mind the graphics in it - 12/09/2012 04:38:47 PM 1287 Views
Re: I don't mind the graphics in it - 13/09/2012 01:55:24 AM 1200 Views
I'm going to ask this here rather than start a new topic as its somewhat related. - 10/09/2012 07:42:32 PM 1245 Views
I remember Wisdom being important - 14/09/2012 04:28:23 AM 1166 Views
And it now has been delayed till Nov *NM* - 15/09/2012 03:52:41 AM 685 Views
On another note, shame on all of you for not telling me Jon Irenicus is Ra's Al Ghul - 15/09/2012 04:19:21 AM 1273 Views
Among many many others. - 17/09/2012 06:45:33 PM 1236 Views

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