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Sometimes sooner is better than later. Joel Send a noteboard - 07/04/2010 01:10:11 AM
Take out WWI, and the Soviet Union never comes about. Hitler never comes to power. No WWII. Nuclear weapons aren't invented (or at the least, delayed). No Holocaust. No Korean War, no Vietnam War. You basically take out a bunch of the bad stuff of the past 90-odd years just by taking out WWI.

It's the problem of history, really; redrawing Europes map in the wake of the Napoleonic Wars, and a century of dancing around the consequences to avoid another major war, made some form of the Great War inevitable. The pressure was never relieved, it just built with each attempt to contain it, until it exploded.

Without the Great War the tensions that led to the Bolshevik Revolution are still present; they'd been festering in Russia for some time before 1914, already having resulted in the assassination of a Czar and the exile of Lenin well before war broke out in Europe. That comes to a head sooner or later, too; the absence of the Great War might mean the White Army wins the Russian civil war due to greater Western aid, but the problems remain, and the fact is Russia was plenty autocratic even before Stalin, so the same Cold War might have resulted, only slightly mitigated by the debt the Czars owed the west for keeping them on the throne. And, yeah, nuclear weapons are just the inevitable march of science; had America not used them it's entirely possible WWII would've lasted long enough for Japan to develop them, a big game changer.


The thing is, though, that WWI caused a lot of these things to happen sooner. While they still might have happened, WWI was the powder keg that set them off.

Had the problems been addressed, seriously and fairly addressed, after 1848 the Great War might have been avoided. Until that happened some form of large scale conflict among all the injured and injuring parties was just a matter of time, but sometimes that timing is important. Imagine it had been delayed until the '30s, or the '40s, or the '50s. Trench warfare, chemical warfare, artillery and machine guns directed at the "human waves" these are all terrible--but what if we delay it until the atom is split...?

Maybe it WAS inevitable; Europe DID manage German and Italian integration before the Great War, but the problems stemming from the first Islamic military push across the Bosporus remained (and largely still do, which is the biggest reason I think admitting Turkey to the EU before dealing with them is, to use a term now associated with an earlier form of the same conflict, "MADNESS!" ) The Sick Man was a well known problem in Europe long before the Great War, but the solution was less well known.
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I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 12:44:15 AM 680 Views
Myself: World War I. - 07/04/2010 12:45:57 AM 532 Views
I don't think it's that simple. - 07/04/2010 12:57:16 AM 468 Views
I see your point. - 07/04/2010 01:02:33 AM 455 Views
Sometimes sooner is better than later. - 07/04/2010 01:10:11 AM 429 Views
True. - 07/04/2010 01:14:45 AM 440 Views
True, one might even say *adding* a war there would've improved things. - 07/04/2010 01:36:07 AM 432 Views
*nods* A small war is usually preferable to a big war. - 07/04/2010 01:49:06 AM 414 Views
The Plague - 07/04/2010 12:52:33 AM 407 Views
Re: The Plague - 07/04/2010 01:05:35 AM 313 Views
Maybe; there were episodic plague epidemics before and after that time. - 07/04/2010 02:05:18 AM 447 Views
I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 02:50:25 AM 418 Views
Re: I am talking about one of the plagues not THE plague - 07/04/2010 08:45:26 PM 411 Views
I'm so glad you have the time and inclination to type up these replies. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:09:22 AM 291 Views
...? - 08/04/2010 07:51:14 PM 310 Views
Sounds like he was thanking you for saving him the effort of writing a similar reply. *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:28:55 PM 322 Views
If that is the case, then great *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:30:51 PM 273 Views
The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 12:55:29 AM 482 Views
Huh. Wild to think about. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:06:44 AM 304 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 07/04/2010 08:47:06 PM 295 Views
Re: The spread of Christianity - 08/04/2010 09:29:17 AM 325 Views
Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:40:47 PM 420 Views
Re: Why would that have an impact on Judaism? - 08/04/2010 01:42:25 PM 274 Views
But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? *NM* - 08/04/2010 01:41:34 PM 307 Views
Re: But wasn't Christianity the inspiration for a whole era of art? - 08/04/2010 01:44:36 PM 452 Views
precisely. - 08/04/2010 05:37:26 PM 428 Views
sorry, didn't see that Lorraine already addressed this. *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:55:00 PM 300 Views
The Partition of India, 1947... *NM* - 07/04/2010 12:59:32 AM 297 Views
Any paticular reason why? *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:34:54 AM 288 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:59:02 AM 371 Views
The destruction of the Great Library. - 07/04/2010 01:02:59 AM 399 Views
Internet spam sucks indeed. - 07/04/2010 01:08:23 AM 493 Views
We'll never know; makes for fascinating speculative fiction. - 07/04/2010 01:13:49 AM 402 Views
This whole topic is wild, it's something I sometimes think about. - 07/04/2010 01:17:50 AM 404 Views
Ya, that's what makes history so gripping. - 07/04/2010 01:19:54 AM 514 Views
I don't know if that's really true... - 07/04/2010 01:39:51 AM 425 Views
It wouldn't have been as sudden or extreme. - 07/04/2010 01:58:39 AM 481 Views
"Joel captures Alexandria! The Great Library is destroyed!" *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:08:35 AM 174 Views
NOOOO1111 - 07/04/2010 01:11:33 AM 324 Views
A shame. It's one of the better ones, too. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:14:20 AM 295 Views
Not in the first two Civs. - 07/04/2010 01:22:43 AM 270 Views
Civ, i love that game... - 07/04/2010 03:01:13 AM 391 Views
Yeah that's one of the small annoying things - 07/04/2010 07:34:52 AM 261 Views
An interesting point - 07/04/2010 02:57:03 AM 430 Views
That's usually my reply to this question too *NM* - 07/04/2010 11:42:55 AM 275 Views
if the giant meteor hadn't destroyed the dinosaurs... - 07/04/2010 01:10:42 AM 338 Views
"FOR" global warming? Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd here! - 07/04/2010 01:16:04 AM 275 Views
The spread of Islam - 07/04/2010 01:26:11 AM 427 Views
oh aren't you clever. *NM* - 07/04/2010 01:47:13 AM 283 Views
There's such a thing as being right for the wrong reasons, though I'm not sure he is. - 07/04/2010 02:12:14 AM 256 Views
Wikipedia is of course not a scholarly source, but all the same... - 07/04/2010 11:57:01 AM 419 Views
Fair enough. - 07/04/2010 12:51:16 PM 405 Views
I read the Bernard Lewis article referred to at Wikipedia... - 07/04/2010 01:19:03 PM 386 Views
So it's borrowed propaganda. - 13/04/2010 09:30:39 AM 370 Views
Re: The spread of Islam - 08/04/2010 09:24:31 AM 468 Views
Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 07:59:39 PM 240 Views
Re: Haha, are you kidding? - 08/04/2010 08:50:33 PM 238 Views
Ask yourself the question... - 08/04/2010 09:33:33 PM 244 Views
I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:49:46 PM 425 Views
Re: I don't see the connection. - 08/04/2010 08:51:21 PM 294 Views
I'd better not touch this one - 07/04/2010 03:12:00 AM 444 Views
The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 04:30:37 AM 401 Views
Re: The spread of Judaism. - 07/04/2010 07:31:02 AM 320 Views
I...do not know. - 07/04/2010 07:18:13 AM 316 Views
Amusing that the underlying expectation seems to be more along political history lines - 07/04/2010 12:56:49 PM 487 Views
Considering the way history is taught, is it surprising? *NM* - 08/04/2010 07:11:03 AM 266 Views
Nope, not really - 08/04/2010 10:24:54 AM 411 Views
Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 10:40:53 AM 248 Views
Yes - 08/04/2010 10:52:11 AM 386 Views
Re: Here's one that'll be more to your liking... - 08/04/2010 11:58:27 AM 287 Views
Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:11:14 PM 434 Views
Re: Uh... - 08/04/2010 12:15:20 PM 458 Views
The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:29:25 PM 397 Views
Re: The Devil is always in the details - 08/04/2010 12:32:34 PM 234 Views
Not really - 08/04/2010 01:07:57 PM 399 Views
Re: Not really - 08/04/2010 01:10:16 PM 273 Views
Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:27:22 PM 379 Views
Re: Only to a degree - 08/04/2010 01:30:12 PM 486 Views
I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:38:24 PM 379 Views
Re: I was into cultural and religious history - 08/04/2010 01:41:31 PM 278 Views
Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:49:23 PM 426 Views
Re: Ha! - 08/04/2010 01:51:28 PM 248 Views
I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:13:20 PM 531 Views
Re: I'm really sleep deprived... - 08/04/2010 02:19:07 PM 298 Views
- 08/04/2010 02:52:59 PM 389 Views
Interesting fact of the day for you two... - 08/04/2010 02:45:15 PM 270 Views
I know - 08/04/2010 02:46:41 PM 428 Views
It was nice being a "threadkiller" of a different sort - 08/04/2010 10:08:34 PM 300 Views
Quote Pyramids of Destiny FTL *NM* - 08/04/2010 10:16:21 PM 279 Views
me being born mega rich *NM* - 07/04/2010 02:15:34 PM 293 Views
Joanie Loves Chachi. - 07/04/2010 03:42:56 PM 345 Views
worse than "afterMASH"?? *NM* - 07/04/2010 03:50:10 PM 258 Views
Worse than "Joey" ? *NM* - 07/04/2010 06:48:25 PM 272 Views
If you remember Joanie loves Chachi, you might be too old? - 08/04/2010 12:00:34 AM 260 Views
Re: I know I just did a survey, but this was too good to pass up. - 07/04/2010 09:04:02 PM 282 Views
Science getting on the ball in the 40's and making superhumans *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:31:34 AM 315 Views
The spread of peanut butter and jelly. - 08/04/2010 07:12:21 AM 414 Views
The Bread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:12:51 AM 457 Views
The dead of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:13:34 AM 410 Views
The thread of Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:14:15 AM 357 Views
The head of [Roman Catholic] Christianity. - 08/04/2010 07:15:21 AM 390 Views
You completely missed the "pick 1" part of the question, didn't you? *NM* - 08/04/2010 09:26:23 AM 280 Views
Well, techinically, I never said that you couldn't make multible posts, each discussing 1 thing. *NM* - 08/04/2010 05:36:37 PM 259 Views
I'm fairly sure he was just mocking someone's earlier post "just thought it would be interesting..." *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:06:56 PM 265 Views
I'm pretty sure of that too. *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:33:46 PM 268 Views
...it's pretty interesting *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:35:47 PM 310 Views
just as you thought it would be? *NM* - 08/04/2010 08:44:49 PM 260 Views
My parody. - 08/04/2010 10:41:29 PM 372 Views
Re: My parody. - 09/04/2010 07:29:19 AM 434 Views
The 1987 Rugby World Cup Final - 13/04/2010 12:23:17 PM 448 Views

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