Even if we accept the upper estimate (and stating "1.5-5%" is hardly "admitting" to the full five percent, if 1/20th can be considered "full. " )
The Archdiocese of ONE area in ONE country is clearly an indictment of the entire 2000 year old organization; I see your point (not. )
Have you taken into account the remote possibility that having an eight year olds molestation become the talk of the town (or nation) might inflict further harm on the child...?
Admitting 1.5-5% is not admitting to 5%; that's the upper bound of an admitted range that starts much lower. In fact, I'm curious what the rate of pedophilia is in other professions that deal with children a great deal, in teaching, pediatrics, or just among clowns. Setting that aside, however, even the upper bound of 5% isn't a majority, it's a tithe of a majority (so to speak) so hardly "endemic. " To call 5% representative of the whole, to say the behavior of 5% reflects institutionalizing their behavior within the whole organization, doesn't pass the BS test.
Again, I'm not defending how many members of the hierarchy have handled the plethora of child abuse cases. Many authority figures have ignored widespread (but I sincerely doubt DOMINANT) and horrid abuse to a degree that makes them complicit, and that they did so for so long and with such success does reflect badly on the organization, but not to the extent of saying the whole organization is itself complicit, let alone encouraged in the abuse. My personal belief is that this was an inevitable result of barring straight married men, women and homosexuals from the priesthood. The goal was to get priests dedicated to God to the exclusion of all else, but in practice human sex drives are such that it often meant barring the bulk of people who weren't already prone to despicable abuse they were obliged to conceal, and who would thus think nothing of concealing it from their employer and the public (which they'd have to do in any profession. ) The devout heterosexual is free to Love, wed and have sex without compromising their faith simply by not entering the priesthood, the route most will take. The devout homosexual may not find Vatican approval, but is at least gaining acceptance in the rest of society. The pedophile is rightly an outcast already, so the fact the Catholic Church would (or at least, should) defrock and report him if discovered really doesn't change much for him.
Fine, since you refuse to take it as typical comedy, let us get serious.
"the Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State"
That's from the official Irish governments report.
"the Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State"
That's from the official Irish governments report.
The Archdiocese of ONE area in ONE country is clearly an indictment of the entire 2000 year old organization; I see your point (not. )
Even if they had implemented cannon laws, those laws state that-
"As, assuredly, what must be mainly taken care of and complied with in handling these trials is that they be managed with maximum confidentiality and after the verdict is declared and put into effect never be mentioned again (20 February 1867 Instruction of the Holy Office, 14), each and every person, who in any way belongs to the tribunal or is given knowledge of the matter because of their office, is obliged to keep inviolate the strictest secrecy (what is commonly called "the secrecy of the Holy Office"
in all things and with all persons, under pain of automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication, incurred ipso facto without need of any declaration other than the present one, and reserved to the Supreme Pontiff in person alone, excluding even the Apostolic Penitentiary."
Oh yes, you tell anyone and you get excommunicated.
"As, assuredly, what must be mainly taken care of and complied with in handling these trials is that they be managed with maximum confidentiality and after the verdict is declared and put into effect never be mentioned again (20 February 1867 Instruction of the Holy Office, 14), each and every person, who in any way belongs to the tribunal or is given knowledge of the matter because of their office, is obliged to keep inviolate the strictest secrecy (what is commonly called "the secrecy of the Holy Office"
in all things and with all persons, under pain of automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication, incurred ipso facto without need of any declaration other than the present one, and reserved to the Supreme Pontiff in person alone, excluding even the Apostolic Penitentiary."Oh yes, you tell anyone and you get excommunicated.
Have you taken into account the remote possibility that having an eight year olds molestation become the talk of the town (or nation) might inflict further harm on the child...?
But surely there can't be that many people doing this?
"we now know that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5 percent and 5 percent of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases." -The Vatican delegation to the U.N. Human Rights Council said in an oral statement Sept. 22, 2009.
If they will admit to upto 5% (that's pretty endemic to me), how much is the real number? After all they've spent 50 years hiding such details, why stop now? And what happened in the hundreds of years before? When rule of law was not so widespread, when religious power was king, when priests were the be all and end all...yeah, i'm sure they were sweetness and light back then...
yadda yadda.
"we now know that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5 percent and 5 percent of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases." -The Vatican delegation to the U.N. Human Rights Council said in an oral statement Sept. 22, 2009.
If they will admit to upto 5% (that's pretty endemic to me), how much is the real number? After all they've spent 50 years hiding such details, why stop now? And what happened in the hundreds of years before? When rule of law was not so widespread, when religious power was king, when priests were the be all and end all...yeah, i'm sure they were sweetness and light back then...
yadda yadda.
Admitting 1.5-5% is not admitting to 5%; that's the upper bound of an admitted range that starts much lower. In fact, I'm curious what the rate of pedophilia is in other professions that deal with children a great deal, in teaching, pediatrics, or just among clowns. Setting that aside, however, even the upper bound of 5% isn't a majority, it's a tithe of a majority (so to speak) so hardly "endemic. " To call 5% representative of the whole, to say the behavior of 5% reflects institutionalizing their behavior within the whole organization, doesn't pass the BS test.
Again, I'm not defending how many members of the hierarchy have handled the plethora of child abuse cases. Many authority figures have ignored widespread (but I sincerely doubt DOMINANT) and horrid abuse to a degree that makes them complicit, and that they did so for so long and with such success does reflect badly on the organization, but not to the extent of saying the whole organization is itself complicit, let alone encouraged in the abuse. My personal belief is that this was an inevitable result of barring straight married men, women and homosexuals from the priesthood. The goal was to get priests dedicated to God to the exclusion of all else, but in practice human sex drives are such that it often meant barring the bulk of people who weren't already prone to despicable abuse they were obliged to conceal, and who would thus think nothing of concealing it from their employer and the public (which they'd have to do in any profession. ) The devout heterosexual is free to Love, wed and have sex without compromising their faith simply by not entering the priesthood, the route most will take. The devout homosexual may not find Vatican approval, but is at least gaining acceptance in the rest of society. The pedophile is rightly an outcast already, so the fact the Catholic Church would (or at least, should) defrock and report him if discovered really doesn't change much for him.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 15/03/2010 at 04:34:24 AM
What's the Catholic Church all about?
- 13/03/2010 10:01:49 PM
717 Views
Alright. I am old.
- 14/03/2010 01:54:15 AM
477 Views
- 14/03/2010 01:54:15 AM
477 Views
How can you not find that funny?!?
- 14/03/2010 02:14:30 AM
432 Views
"I know absolutely nothing about the Catholic Church" but it's a nice big easy target and I'm lazy.
- 14/03/2010 03:22:10 AM
460 Views
It's hilarious
- 14/03/2010 01:41:02 PM
415 Views
It's fundamentally not true.
- 14/03/2010 06:24:19 PM
446 Views
- 14/03/2010 07:35:07 PM
437 Views
- 14/03/2010 07:35:07 PM
437 Views
Really guys.
- 14/03/2010 08:28:33 PM
419 Views
It struck me more as an attack on the Catholic Church as a whole.
- 15/03/2010 04:37:42 AM
421 Views
5%<100%
- 15/03/2010 04:15:09 AM
536 Views
5%>0% *NM*
- 15/03/2010 04:18:10 AM
189 Views
I didn't say the Catholic Church was guitless, only that it wasn't founded for pedophilia.
- 15/03/2010 04:19:58 AM
375 Views